Royal Regiment of Canada - Dieppe casualties

[dfuller52]

I have just started looking into the death of L/Cpl Robert Smith, Royal Canadian Regiment, who was killed in what I assume was the Dieppe Raid on 19 Aug 1942. The odd part is that he is buried in the Canadian War Cemetery in Calais, which is many miles away. Is there anyone on the board who has detailed knowledge of the Royals that day and how my man wound up in Calais? I know there were many burials in far flung places after the raid, particularly among wounded and prisoners, but it does beg the question, how did he get there?

[I have fixed the title as suggested. He was with the Royals not the RCRs.]

(Moderator edit to update title. - M. O'Leary)

 

[hugh19]

The RCR was in the 1st division and it was the 2nd Divison that attacked at Dieppe. Might you be thinking of the Royal regiment of Canada?

 

[Old Sweat]

The Royal Canadian Regiment was not on the Dieppe Raid. However The RCR was in France for a short period in 1940. Do you mean the Royal Regiment of Canada which was on the Dieppe Raid? Do you have the day and year of his death?

 

[geo]

dfuller...
The fact that the individual is buried in Callais doesn't make much of a difference.
Calais isn't very far from Dieppe +/- 70 Km
Calais has a large rail marshalling yard - where rail facilities in Dieppe may have been damaged in the bombing & shelling that preceeded the raid.  He may have been wounded in Dieppe, hospitalized near Calais & then died while en-route to detention.

 

[vonGarvin]

Hi there.  I found info on B/66603 L/Cpl Robert Smith, Royal Regiment of Canada, Son of Mrs. A. Smith, of Toronto, Ontario at this address.  He is memorialised on page 115 of the Book of Remembrance.  Here is the image:

  Note how many on that page were RCAF.  Anyway, as geo said, he may have been moved there as a wounded soldier, who later died of wounds.  The cemetary at Dieppe was created by the Germans, and was well-maintained when I had the chance to visit there in 2002.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Canadian Virtual War Memorial

In memory of Lance Corporal  ROBERT  SMITH who died on August 19, 1942

Military Service:

Service Number: B/66603
Age: 19
Force: Army
Unit: Royal Regiment of Canada, R.C.I.C.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Maybe a thread title change is in order?

 

[dfuller52]

Thanks all for such quick replies and sincere apologies for the mix-up. The reason I wondered about the location of his burial is simply that he died on the day of the raid, leaving only a short time for him to be landed, moved 70km and then die. If he was that severely wounded, why would they move him? I was thinking he might have been killed trying to escape or something like that.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Maybe he died in the sea and that is where his body finally washed ashore.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Also resting in the Calais war cemetary and having a listed date of death as 19 Aug 1942 are:

Royal Regiment of Canada
CRONIN, LLOYD GEORGE
GREEN, SIMON
LEE, ALBERT EDWARD
MILLEN, EDWIN THOMAS
NEVEU, RONALD
NEWHOUSE, ROBERT VERNELL
REITH, GORDON

Les Fusiliers Mont-Royal
CARTIER, WILLIE
DUPUIS, ARTHUR
TREMBLAY, ANDRE

Essex Scottish Regiment
TAYLOR, WILLIAM GORDON

Royal Hamilton Light Infantry
ACTON, EARL
COLE, A G
CRONIN, JOHN BRYAN
HEIFETZ, LEIZER
MEINERS, ALBERT WILLIAM
RHYNARD, AUSTIN JOSEPH

South Saskatchewan Regiment
CHYMKO, WALTER DANIEL
DAWSON, ALEXANDER FOTHERINGHAM
McAVOY, JAMES MICHAEL

Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders of Canada
McKELLAR, ALEXANDER JOHN

Calgary Regiment
ZIMA, MICHAEL FELIX

Royal Marines  No. 40 R.M. Commando
HARWOOD, FREDERICK CHARLES WILLIAM
WIGMORE, HAROLD ARTHUR

It may be not so much a case of how they got there on that day (19/08/42) but when their remains were moved to their "final resting place".  The Commonwealth War Cemetaries (from either of the world wars, especially the first) were not necessarily established in the locations they presently occupy as the battles raged, nor immediately afterwards.  There was much consolidation - gathering of the dead where they had been first buried and reinterment in the years following the end of the wars.  It may simply be a case that these fallen were not originally buried by the Germans in the Dieppe cemetary (which was not completed as the first CWGC cemetary for WW2 until 1949) or even immediately discovered (MIA?) and when they were reintered they were buried in the Calais cemetary as may also be the case for these two who should have been even farther to the southwest.

1st Canadian Parachute Battalion
Date of Death: 06/06/1944
COBURN, JOHN CARRWON
NIGH, JOSEPH SIMEON

 

[mariomike]

Note how many on that page were RCAF. 

That is no coincidence.
The RCAF, even in 1942, was regularly attacking the most heavily defended cities in the world.

 

[dfuller52]

Thanks all for the discussion on this. I know there were many re-interrements thanks to the work of a select band of personnel who had a grisly job organizing the final resting place of thousands. I have sent to Ottawa for his record so the burial card will probably tell me more.

 

[ex-Sup]

Note how many on that page were RCAF.

That is no coincidence.
The RCAF, even in 1942, was regularly attacking the most heavily defended cities in the world.

Well, according to our friends at Wikipedia (using info from the CWGC), Canada suffered 45,364 deaths in WWII; 17,394 are from the RCAF. That would represent 38% of total deaths. Now thanks again to Wikipedia, the RCAF enlisted 260,000 personnel, so that would 7% of that total were KIA. This compares with the Army (730,000/24,529=3.4%) and the RCN (115,000/2169=2%).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#endnote_Canada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Canada_during_the_Second_World_War
I think this demonstrates the tremendous losses suffered by the RCAF (and the RAF et al), especially among the bombers crews (Nuremburg comes to mind).  This is not to downplay all the sacrifices that were made.

 

[mariomike]

Your numbers must include ground crew.
The pitiful prospects of surviving a tour in Bomber Command was only matched in hazard on either side by the German U-boat crews.
It is surprising that Bomber Command did not suffer a score of Nurembergs. Nuremberg - 11.8% failed to return - was acceptable in the context of Bomber Command's overall loss rate and the supply of replacement aircraft and crews. Nuremberg was statistically a little worse than those at Leipzig and Berlin in previous weeks, and was less than Revigny ( 24% ) in July 1944.

 

[ex-Sup]

Your numbers must include ground crew.

I dunno...just what the Wikipedia man tells me!

The pitiful prospects of surviving a tour in Bomber Command was only matched in hazard on either side by the German U-boat crews.

According to our friends again, bad, but not even close. The info here quotes 783 subs and 28,000 submariners (75% loss rate).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-boat

 

[mariomike]

I dunno...just what the Wikipedia man tells me!
According to our friends again, bad, but not even close. The info here quotes 783 subs and 28,000 submariners (75% loss rate).

If you are interested in learning about Bomber Command I can recommend some books to you.
Max Hastings wrote a book titled "Bomber Command". In the forward he states that Bomber Command's "sacrifice was greater than the British Army's total loss of officers in the First World War." He goes on to state in the same paragraph, "The pitiful prospects of surviving a tour of bomber operations were only matched in hazard by the German U-boat service."
Martin Middlebrook is another historian who wrote a book titled, "The Bomber Command War Diaries". In the chapter "Statistics": "Aproximately 125,000 airmen served in the squadrons and the operational training and conversion units of Bomber Command during the war. Nearly 60 per cent of Bomber Command aircrew became casualties.
Both authors point out that all casualties were Sergeants, Warrant Officers and Commissioned Officers.
Murray Peden, author of "A Thousand Shall Fall: The True Story of a Canadian Bomber Pilot in World War Two" wrote "less than 25 out of each 100 crews would survive their first tour of 30 operations."
It seems you prefer wikipedia so here is a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bomber_Command#Casualties
Taking an example of 100 airmen:
55 killed on operations or died as result of wounds
three injured (in varying levels of severity) on operations or active service
12 taken prisoner of war (some injured)
two shot down and evaded capture
27 survived a tour of operations
And another:
http://www.elsham.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/raf_bc/
This is the Bomber Command Memorial in Alberta:
http://www.lancastermuseum.ca/commandlosses.html

 

[ex-Sup]

Thanks for the info. I was being a bit facetious with the comment, but I'll be sure to check things out when I have some time.

On a side note, maybe I'll get to it today, since it's another 30+cm there's no buses but schools are open day  Two kids again...I guess I'll get all my marking done.

 

[Rifleman62]

Murray Peden, author of "A Thousand Shall Fall: The True Story of a Canadian Bomber Pilot in World War Two" wrote "less than 25 out of each 100 crews would survive their first tour of 30 operations."

In the book, Mr Peden states Bomber Command KIA as 50,000. This was discused a year or so back. I did not seach for this post as the site speed is KIA slow.

Mr Pelen was from Wpg. I donated his book reluctently when I downsized and moved. Excellent book.

 

[mariomike]

In the book, Mr Peden states Bomber Command KIA as 50,000. This was discused a year or so back. I did not seach for this post as the site speed is KIA slow.

Mr Peden flew with 214 (Bomber Support) Squadron on B-17's  in a radio counter-measures RCM role, i.e. the detection and jamming of enemy radio and radar equipment. Bomber Support had a ( relatively ) low loss rate, compared to the Main Force heavy bombers.
Bomber Command had 55,500 killed. KIA or died POW:47,268 Killed in accidents: 8,195 Killed in ground battle: 37 ( This would mostly be from Luftwaffe strafing the aircrew reception centre at Bournemouth. )

 

[mariomike]

L/Cpl Robert Smith, Royal Canadian Regiment, who was killed in what I assume was the Dieppe Raid on 19 Aug 1942.

There is mention of Robert - his serial number is included - in the Toronto Star 16 Jan 1943 on page 21. His mother's name was Agnes, and they included his home address  in Toronto. That's to update his status to KIA. He is reported as MIA on the Dieppe raid in the 16 Sept 1942 paper on page 14.
There is sad letter from his mother Agnes published in the 8 Oct /42 Star on page 2 regarding not getting her assinged pay.