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"Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation

The RCN has its old rank titles and executive curl back. What should be the next step for the CF ra

  • Nothing. The current rank system works, so leave it alone.

    Votes: 118 58.1%
  • Complete return to the pre-unification ranks of the 50s and early 60s.

    Votes: 40 19.7%
  • Complete return to post unification ranks of the 70s and early 80s.

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • Officers only return to the pre-unification ranks of the 50s and early 60s.

    Votes: 9 4.4%
  • Copy the UK rank system - it is the prototype anyway.

    Votes: 17 8.4%
  • Copy the US rank system - they are the new colonial master.

    Votes: 2 1.0%
  • Create a whole new Canadian system.

    Votes: 8 3.9%
  • Lobby for standardized NATO rank insignia.

    Votes: 7 3.4%
  • Copy the French rank system - it is the other founding nation's turn

    Votes: 1 0.5%

  • Total voters
    203

myself.only

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PrairieThunder said:
Could have had some boots by now...

OK so correct me if I'm getting this wrong but the CAF issues some combination of four different types of operational boots currently in service: Mk IIIs, WWBs, the tan boot, and the chocolate temperate boot?
Yet soldiers are going on crse without any of the above?

Wow, 4 boots and 0 issued.... that's concurrent activity... I'd say we've mastered the art of full spectrum FUBAR.  :facepalm:
 

Pencil Tech

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Tank Troll said:
Damn it was rough catching up on all this and wanted to make sure that I read everything. Gen Leslie told us army folk down in Halifax in 2010 right after the Navy got told that they were getting there Executive curl back that He ask the MND if the army could have there pips and crowns back Don't know if this was where it all started but it is as good as any to start to look at.

Say what? All I know about this monumental issue I learned by reading this thread, and so nobody, I mean like nobody, in the Army wants these evil pips and crowns, especially since months and months of staff time that could easily be spent on solving the problems of the world have been dedicated to forcing poor defenceless army officers to put these horrible things on their shoulderstraps. I was sure I learned here that it must be an evil plot out of the Prime Minister's Office (even though most of the people making the noise here voted for the current Prime Minister - suck it up). And now you come along and tell me that this Gen. Leslie guy asked for this? This Gen. Leslie was in the Army..he used to like, run it, right? Gosh!  :facepalm:;D
 

McG

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Tank Troll said:
Gen Leslie told us army folk down in Halifax in 2010 right after the Navy got told that they were getting there Executive curl back that He ask the MND if the army could have there pips and crowns back
LGen Devlin took command of the Army on 10 Jun 2010, and the executive curl officially returned on 11 Jun 2010. 

I have no knowledge of Mr Leslie's thoughts on pips and crowns, but if he made a request it was as he stepped into being a civilian.  Back in that same timeframe, the leaders of the Army discussed and concluded thay the Army did not want to change.  During his tenure, Devlin was clear when this topic came up - the army did not want it. 

Pencil Tech said:
... since months and months of staff time that could easily be spent on solving the problems of the world have been dedicated to forcing poor defenceless army officers to put these horrible things on their shoulderstraps.
You are distracting with a strawman.  No one rain drop feels it is responsible for the flood.  Pips and crowns are just one bit of the heritage deluge sucking effort away from things that matter.
 

a_majoor

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myself.only said:
OK so correct me if I'm getting this wrong but the CAF issues some combination of four different types of operational boots currently in service: Mk IIIs, WWBs, the tan boot, and the chocolate temperate boot?
Yet soldiers are going on crse without any of the above?

Wow, 4 boots and 0 issued.... that's concurrent activity... I'd say we've mastered the art of full spectrum FUBAR.  :facepalm:

Well actually they have NSN's for three boots (good luck tryng to get Mk III's, however you may feel about them), but have extremely limited quantities of any; most recruits will get one pair of boots, and if it so happens the one pair in stock that fits you are CWW boots, then that is what you get. Watching two separate courses here in Kingston over the summer without boots (or even uniforms) was a pretty depressing experience, and certainly hardened my attitude towards the sorts of people who push non operational issues at the expense of the troops. This Clive Law should get a smack upside the head, delivered by a recruit who had to undergo training without the proper kit....

Yes we will shake our heads and continue to do what we are told and soldier on as best we can.  (Latest WTF moment today was being on a range and seeing several officers with the "high visibility" rank slipons attached to their tac vests, I didn't even bother to ask)
 

Tank Troll

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MCG said:
LGen Devlin took command of the Army on 10 Jun 2010, and the executive curl officially returned on 11 Jun 2010. 

I have no knowledge of Mr Leslie's thoughts on pips and crowns, but if he made a request it was as he stepped into being a civilian.  Back in that same timeframe, the leaders of the Army discussed and concluded thay the Army did not want to change.  During his tenure, Devlin was clear when this topic came up - the army did not want it. 
You are distracting with a strawman.  No one rain drop feels it is responsible for the flood.  Pips and crowns are just one bit of the heritage deluge sucking effort away from things that matter.
The anoucement for the Executive Curl was made in 2010 during the Navy's hundred year celebration. Yes they did not get it till 2011. Gen Leslie was made Chief of Transformation in June of 2010 and did retire till Sept of 2011.
 

McG

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Tank Troll said:
The anoucement for the Executive Curl was made in 2010 during the Navy's hundred year celebration. Yes they did not get it till 2011.
I noted 2010 not 2011, so I am not sure what your point is.  For three years, the leadership of the Army was opposed to change.
Pointing to a man who no longer spoke for the Army through this period while the Army was speaking the opposite ... it does more to support the notion that this change was about pleasing the retired crowed.
 

Tank Troll

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I was just saying that Gen Leslie before he retired told a bunch of us in Halifax that he ask the MND if the army could get their pips and crowns back. That was in 2010 after the anouncement that the Navy was getting it Executive Curl back. Now whether he pushed this after he retired I do not know.
 

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Thucydides said:
This Clive Law should get a smack upside the head, delivered by a recruit who had to undergo training without the proper kit....

Why limit it to just one recruit? Where is your sense of generosity?
 

Journeyman

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Loachman said:
This Clive Law should get a smack upside the head, delivered by a recruit who had to undergo training without the proper kit....
Why limit it to just one recruit? Where is your sense of generosity?
Perhaps he meant, "one recruit at a time;)
 

Loachman

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Journeyman said:
Why limit it to just one recruit? Where is your sense of generosity?
Perhaps he meant, "one recruit at a time;)

I opt for "All at Once".
 

Loachman

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From your point of view.

He seems pretty puffed-up about his role, however.
 

Jungle

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Not sure if this has been posted:

http://www.servicepub.com/clive.html

At times I reenact a WWII Canadian War Correspondent. The picture at left was taken by noted reenactment photographer Janice Lang, in the courtyard of the Canadian War Museum.

Reenactment...  ::) how about "serving". I've seen some egos over the years; this guy seems to be in his own category.
 

Halifax Tar

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Jungle said:
Not sure if this has been posted:

http://www.servicepub.com/clive.html

Reenactment...  ::) how about "serving". I've seen some egos over the years; this guy seems to be in his own category.

I believe he did serve, at least a platoon commander in the GGFG see the last photo on the link.  Not sure what this gentleman has done incorrect in your eyes.
 

a_majoor

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Loachman said:
Why limit it to just one recruit? Where is your sense of generosity?

Well, we could have the symbolic recruit do a "smack" every anniversary on behalf of every one, or just line up one year's recruit intake and have them go in sequence.....

All at once, while appealing, might degenerate into something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffwFXGPRDu4
 

shootemup604

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Nothing.  The current rank system works, so leave it alone. 118 (59%)
Complete return to the pre-unification ranks of the 50s and early 60s.  38 (19%) 
Complete return to post unification ranks of the 70s and early 80s.  1 (0.5%) 
Officers only return to the pre-unification ranks of the 50s and early 60s.  9 (4.5%)
Create a whole new Canadian system.  8 (4%) 
Lobby for standardized NATO rank insignia.  7 (3.5%) 
Copy the UK rank system - it is the evolved prototype anyway.  16 (8%) 
Copy the US rank system - they are the new colonial master.  2 (1%) 
Copy the French rank system - it is the other founding nation's turn. 1 (0.5%) 

By the numbers above many support the change.  It isn't a majority, but it certainly disproves the argument that no one wanted it.

Complete return to the pre-unification ranks of the 50s and early 60s.  38 (19%) +
Officers only return to the pre-unification ranks of the 50s and early 60s.  9 (4.5%) +
Copy the UK rank system - it is the evolved prototype anyway.  16 (8%) =
31.5% of respondents to this poll support this change.  I'm also interested to know the NCO vs. Off. breakdown in this.
 

armyvern

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shootemup604 said:
... I'm also interested to know the NCO vs. Off. breakdown in this.

On the NCO front, it's 0 here.  On a good note though, the CO (via the RSM) did just authorize troops to wear boots they purchase themselves (hey, at least then they'll have boots to wear).

::)

It ain't a "pips & crowns" thing; it's the fact that every single dime wasted on shit like this and self-licking ice creams cones should be put towards stuff the troops actually need - and don't have - that's actually required to do the damn jobs this country expects of them. Seems pretty fuckin' simple to me.
 

Lightguns

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Jungle said:
Not sure if this has been posted:

http://www.servicepub.com/clive.html

Reenactment...  ::) how about "serving". I've seen some egos over the years; this guy seems to be in his own category.

If you look at the bottom, he has served as an LT in the Guards in 74.  He obviously went on to a fairly good career as a military historian and has a nice body of work that helps preserve our customs.  I  :salute: him.  Thanks for posting the site now I have some more books to buy and read.

Nothing wrong with historical re-enactors, their research into the smallest detail of the life of their subject often brings to forward things soldiers do that are both interesting and enlightening.  They preserve military history in a way that no static display ever could.

As for ego, well, it is his personal page, one should be proud of oneself.

Go back to www.servicepub.com, he has a bunch of great stuff coming up!

Edited to change there to their....... ooopsy!
 

Eye In The Sky

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Article Link

September 13, 2013

On March 13, 2013, the Governor General of Canada, His Excellency the Right Honourable David Johnston, approved a new badge for the Royal Canadian Air Force. The badge was unveiled in Ottawa on September 15, 2013, following the national ceremony marking the 73rd anniversary of the Battle of Britain.

This change to RCAF insignia came about in the wake of the restoration of the traditional name for Canada’s air force – Royal Canadian Air Force – which occurred on August 16, 2011. The restoration was a return to the name that had been approved for the air force in 1923 by His Majesty King George V and that came into effect on April 1, 1924.

The Royal Canadian Navy, Canadian Army and Royal Canadian Air Force merged into a single service known as the Canadian Armed Forces on February 1, 1968, when the Unification Act came into effect.

In reality, the air force disappeared completely as a separate command entity, as air assets were distributed among other commands. However, in 1975, Air Command was formed and its commander became responsible for all air assets within the Canadian Armed Forces.

The new Royal Canadian Air Force badge hearkens back to the pre-unification RCAF badge. It shows a golden eagle volant – or flying with outstretched wings – on an azure (sky blue) background. The badge combines pride in the past with contemporary spirit; the eagle flying solo reflects the confident, experienced, resilient, agile and integrated RCAF.

This new badge replaces the Air Command badge, which showed an eagle rising from a Canadian astral crown.

The Royal Canadian Air Force retains the Air Command motto Sic Itur Ad Astra – “such is the pathway to the stars”. This motto was first granted to the Canadian Air Force when it was formed in 1920. Sic Itur Ad Astra was replaced by Per Ardua Ad Astra, the motto of the Royal Air Force, when the Royal Canadian Air Force came into being in 1924. Thus, Sic Itur Ad Astra continues to recall the very earliest days of the establishment of a national air force.
 
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