RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’

brihard

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mariomike said:
Some NYPD "bad apples" are lateral transferred to FDNY. Does not happen in Canada, to the best of my knowledge.

eg: The Amadou Diallo incident in the Bronx.

:goodpost:

Same goes for the emergency services.

No. You eat anything criminal, or any serious disciplinary, another police service won’t touch you. I’m talking about members who are clean. There are a couple good people I might reach out to once we get our contract and see if they want to consider different options. I know some people there with really impressive backgrounds and skill sets who get stuck doing nothing but working first response on the road for the first 6-8 years and barely get to touch investigations in a meaningful way. The municipal model works the way it does because it has to, but some good minds are squandered potentially for years. If I was at OPS ith less than ten years in right now I’d seriously look at finding another option.
 

mariomike

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Brihard said:
You eat anything criminal, or any serious disciplinary, another police service won’t touch you.

They transferred to the City Fire Dept.

Same employer, different department.
 

brihard

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mariomike said:
They transferred to the City Fire Dept.

Same employer, different department.

I know. I was pulling it back to the subject at hand.
 

mariomike

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Brihard said:
I know some people there with really impressive backgrounds and skill sets who get stuck doing nothing but working first response on the road for the first 6-8 years and barely get to touch investigations in a meaningful way. The municipal model works the way it does because it has to, but some good minds are squandered potentially for years.

I think anyone working first-response on the street in a big city dept. may get a little "burned out" as the years   decades roll by.  :)

As you say, "The municipal model works the way it does because it has to"

But, I think doing good work on 9-1-1 Operations, including police, is the most fun you will ever have in your life.  :)
 

brihard

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mariomike said:
I think anyone working first-response on the street in a big city dept. may get a little "burned out" as the years   decades roll by.  :)

As you say, "The municipal model works the way it does because it has to"

But, I think doing good work on 9-1-1 Operations, including police, is the most fun you will ever have in your life.  :)

Oh, for sure. I’ve gotten to work on some really cool stuff since I moved to full time investigations, but there’s a lot I miss about the road. Working with a solid watch on a night shift gone sideways is simply something that isn’t really relatable to anyone who hasn’t been there and lived that. I’ve had great times on some long and crappy shifts.

I was speaking more to my appreciation for the type of policing I got to do, here even being on the road you still took and kept files the whole way through. It was a lot more stimulating and developmental, and it also pulls you out of the ‘on scene’ craziness periodically to Maggie your brain in the investigative side.
 

lenaitch

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mariomike said:
Same goes for the emergency services.

Yes I suppose you are right.  Folks are drawn to the different professions for different reasons.  I don't think I ever knew or heard of a professional firefighter patching over to police service, and vaguely recall a member who came over from EMS.  It might happen more within municipalities where the employer, pensions, etc. are the same.  Movement between employers within the same profession is much more common.
 

mariomike

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lenaitch said:
Yes I suppose you are right.  Folks are drawn to the different professions for different reasons. 

Maybe some want to make a contribution to society. Satisfaction in helping people. Of being a vital, important member of the community. I don't remember if any of those things were important to me half a century ago. I'm sure I mentioned it in the Interview.

But, I was interested in a job with a future, that was exciting, and far from routine. A career with opportunities, as well as guaranteed security.

It was actually a TV show that debuted during my senior year of high school that got me interested. It was called "EMERGENCY!".





 

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lenaitch said:
Private security?  Where they exist they are doing the easy, but visible, 'find committing' stuff.  They have no authority to do anything else.  Any arrest they make still ties up the police.  They serve whoever contracts them, they are subject to very limited public oversight and are eligible for full unionization, including the ability to strike.  No thanks, not with my tax dollars.

They have authority over the property of whoever the client is. If private security were used for policing I would guess that they would be a new catorgization with different training and new legislation put into force. I'm have worked security before, and unfortunately a lot of the time security isn't used very well, or not employed in numbers to actually be effective (security is a job that you should never be doing by yourself, but people are cheap) and unfortunately there are a lot of dumb people who are hired for that job that shouldn't be, leading the industry to get a really bad name. Some of the comments I would randomly get from people were pretty bad, not even people I was telling not to do something, just random people walking by. I even had a homeless women turn her nose up at me cause apparently I was beneath her. I think the world would be a better place if everyone had to work a year or two in security, everyone would have a lot more patience for each other. 
 

Alberta Bound

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Wow, for a discussion on patches, you all sure did cover a wide “patch” of ground. Lots of good discussion and many good points.

So. I just wanted to add in a few things. But before I get started I wanted to thank Brihard for all the great work. There are some terrific explanations on here. As usual, it’s a pleasure to read your stuff.

First, All good cops hate bad cops. Period, full stop. I am not talking about cops who make stupid mistakes or are just not good at the job. Those we have opinions on. Mainly thanks for trying, don’t let the door hit you on the way out. All businesses and agencies have those people. What I mean is those cops, convicted or not, who commit criminality. In 32 years with the Mounted Police 25+ Regular and 6 Aux I investigated / arrested a number of Mounties for criminal acts. Like all groups we have bad apples. Like all good groups we would like them to have an opportunity to experience the court process from the other side. We try very hard to do full impartial investigations and give them that chance.

But here is the thing. We are bound to give them the same Rights as all other Canadians. The same due process. So when you complain about some bad cop getting off in the Courts or getting a penalty other than getting fired under the Code of Conduct. Don’t blame the front line members. The cop you see on the street. The system isn’t perfect and not all bad cops get fired or get jail. As much as we can wish.

Some want cops fired instantly for any (perceived) transgression. Skip the investigation and throw away due process. Never going to happen and neither should it. One, it isn’t fair. Two, if we don’t have faith in the system how would you expect us to uphold it. I heard accountability mentioned. 100% for it. No question about it. Good cops, the vast majority of cops. Are for it. I heard someone say that they don’t care if a cop gets ruined by an investigation. Why not? I care about every person I detained in an investigation who ultimately had no involvement. I feel sad about every investigation that didn’t get the time or effort to give the victim the closure they deserved. I am mad for every person who was accused of something that I was forced to arrest and put in the system till we could get the evidence to know the truth. Why don’t you care?! Cops are just those members of the public doing this full time. But we can only do this honourably and professionally with your support.

In the last 16 years I spent 4 as a Unit 2 I/c, 8 as a Unit Commander in 5 different detachments. You want stress. Be the #1 or #2 in a small (5-10 member) detachment and charge one of your guys Code or Criminally, knowing that he will be your backup next Friday night. You want pride, be there on Friday when your deciding how long you can keep talking to the drunk guy with the 30/30 who has his wife and kids in the house, with ERT 12 hrs away and that same member has your back 100% throughout the event.

I also spent 2 yrs in a position “assisting” members with their grievances, Codes, Performance issues and when they got arrested. I saw great members put through the ringer wrongly and others not held accountable. One of the first things I learned was about Administrative Case Law. That’s the “average” someone gets for a similar offence. I saw people in the Code of Conduct (that I was assisting!) that I thought should be fired. Who Conduct Section or Adjudications in Ottawa told me would get between A and B because that was the “standard”. Do you know where that “standard” came from? Previous rulings within the RCMP, other Police Services, even other professions. Doctors, Lawyers, Etc. I saw a couple members the RCMP actually discharged. Who I thought should have left. Who got lawyers and convinced a Federal Court to order the RCMP to rehire them. As the punishment was too severe.................

So a few facts:
Training Standards. Tell me what you want, because I am never opposed to training. But to increase training you need to hire more cops. Because in general for RCMP members, after you take off 11 Stats, 4 weeks leave (average) this leaves you 46 weeks in a year. In contract policing, we then generally need every member for 42 to 44 weeks in a year operationally tasked. During those days there is not often time to do any real training. Just the sea of online courses that continuously are being made mandatory. That leaves 2 to 4 weeks for training in a year. That’s it, that’s all.

Accountability:What would you like?
- We have Performance standards. Start of year goals, learning plans, ongoing performance management, mid year reviews and year end assessments. But the people who manage those are also your operational supervisors every day. Every time someone adds another form or some other administrative task, it takes away from operational supervision.
- You make a big mistake on a file (bigger than unit performance management) expect an outside NCO or Officer to be assigned to do an Incident Review. The results of that go to at least the Division 2 I/c if not the CO and can go to the Commissioner. That can commence career altering consequences.
- if there is any indication of a breach of the Code of Conduct, expect to be Investigated. Expect it will be months before you get the result. Also since it is not criminal, you have no right to counsel. Plus you have a “Duty to Report”. In other words tell us everything but the very narrow point of the incriminating evidence. We even have Community Observers on many of these investigations. Many Indigenous related files.
- Of course there is the ever present Statutory investigation. Any perceived misuse of force can give you the opportunity to speak to a lawyer and wait 12 ish months to know the outcome.
- We also have Civil Court. Lawyers suing to get compensation from the Govt for all manner of imagined transgressions. The best part is where DOJ tells you that if in their opinion they feel you “Acted outside the Scope of your Duty” that they will recommend that the Govt not indemnify you in the proceedings. Of course since you are getting the nice DOJ lawyer for free. The Govt won’t reimburse you for your own lawyer. The guy suing for injuries after taking off from the police and crashing the stolen car and being injured. All because the bad police officer tried to pull him over.
- Lastly there is my favourite. The Public Complaint Process. I won’t give you my opinion of the present Chair of the CRCC nor her “qualifications”. Let me be blunt. If the CRCC wants to take over ALL parts of these, including hiring their own investigators. Have at it. In my experience with More than a couple of hundred of these. Less than 5% have any substance. Some of my favourites:
- officer didn’t give the person a ride home from jail,
- officer gave them a ticket,
- officer wasn’t wearing their hat,
- officer was blocking the road (for a parade),
- more than 2 officers had lunch together,
- officer took more than 15 min for a coffee break
- officer used the siren to respond to an emergency and woke them up,
- officer did X, Y or Z to them in cells (disproved by the 24 video system In cells constantly running)
- officer didn’t charge X politician for (insert perceived transgression),
- officer assisted Child and Family Services in seizing their child,
Etc.
To be perfectly fair. There are some valid complaints. Which result in Codes or Stat charges against members.
There are also people who call in complaints WEEKLY of the type listed above.
My own theory on why Often we may be behind in completing these is that since there are not designated positions who do all these (instead it is those same front line supervisors, but usually from a separate detachment) That the volume simply is too much to do as an extra on top of your regular position.
- We aren’t even talking about Fatality Inquiries and other Extra judicial forums.
This isn’t a Pity party. Just some insight into the regular Oversite. What more would you like?

You don’t want cops to go to Child Welfare calls, mental health calls, wellness checks. Well neither do we. But do you know who most often calls us to those calls; CFS workers, Mental Health workers (including DRs) and the family and friends of the person. Do you know what a wellness check is? It is most often to see if the person has harmed themselves. Usually the friends and family won’t themselves go as they have been assaulted in the past. You wish we had more deescalation training. Sure. But I have talked to the guy with the rifle for hrs, more than once. I have pleaded with the responsible community member who was off their meds (including my next door neighbour in one community) and got them to the hospital many times. I have also been jumped by the hiding person who tried to disarm me and kill me with my own gun. Talking only goes so far. And it always sounds easier in a classroom, in a big Center, told by a “professional” than what actually happens 100 Kms from backup at 0300.

Now, forget about the Toronto Cop making $150,000 in OT alone due to extra duties and traffic court. Let’s talk regular cops. Do I think as a S/Sgt that I make a pretty good living. $114,000 per yer base. Yep not bad. Now of course my wife always compares how I left a good job at a good company where I was making over $50,000 year in 1994 to join the RCMP for $28,000 going up to $45,000 after 3 years. Hmmmmmm, doesn’t sound as good now.
Okay let’s use Education as a criteria. Someone on here thinks Grade 12 vs a BA, vs an MA is the basis for what people should get paid. But in general is that true? Is that the “standard”. Well not really. In some industries / businesses education is needed. But it doesn’t always translate into a bigger salary. The “market” is what dictates salaries. Should all nurses with a Degree get paid more than a paramedic? What about tradesman? What about a teacher versus a cop. I can tell you what my wife thinks with her B Ed.  I can tell you in my service I was offered a number of jobs in the oil patch for significantly more than I do the RCMP. An ex coworker is making $30,000 a month as a consultant. Now,
Would I like a raise, sure. Do I complain that I don’t make enough, no. Do I think in the RCMP that we deserve more than Muni Cops, yes. At least the same in base salary and better coverage for housing losses moving around and some extra for all the times we lost my wife’s salary, benefits and pension due to all the moves. Now I don’t think you can compare the RCMP to the CAF not even to MPs. It’s just not the same. You pay a cop a decent salary in the hope that they do the right thing. That they look after you and yours with as much care and compassion as they would their own and free from corruption. On nice days as well as in miserable weather in the middle of the night 200 kms from nowhere. Not just in downtown Toronto, Montreal, Surrey, but also in Goose Bay, Peace River and in Cross Lake and Chateh. So that they don’t lose that feeling of serving their communities. But ultimately, I decided to join. No different than every other Mountie and no different than every member of the CF. I Signed on the dotted line and took the Queens shilling. Whatever she decided that may be.

I will leave you with this. The Order of Police Merit almost never goes to operational cops. Management only folks, dogs and harness bulls keep off the grass. We almost never get a MSC or MSM no matter what, and again it isn’t awarded to the front line. The odd bravery decoration here and there and a smattering of Commissioner's Commendations but nothing compared to the work the members are actually doing. When I was near the end of my tour in Afghanistan the CAF told me the regs at that time allowed the CDS to award the police mentors in mission the GCS as we were armed, operationally deployed and imbedded right in CAF units. But alas they said the CAF members were unhappy about civilians getting the SWASM previously. So it was a GSM and I couldn’t even receive it with my platoon. It was presented in a quiet corner out of the way at KAF so as not disturb anyone at TF-K. No I am not shedding a tear for I am proud of my GSM and more of the time I served and those which I did it with. I more wished that the RCMP would have a 5th Battle Honour proudly displayed on our Guidon, “Afghanistan”.

I say this to show that the front line of the RCMP in the way of recognition is truly the red jacketed step child. So while a thin blue line on a small blue Canada flag may seem silly to you and an affront to those in Ottawa. It is for us who every day go out with the best of intentions. A display to those who will have our back, that we shall have theirs.

Thank you for your time.

GDH


 

Kat Stevens

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So we want to hand responsibility for our and our children's safety off to the lowest bidder, for a contract period of 3-5 years before the bidding process starts again? Tempting as that sounds I'll pass, thanks.
 

Good2Golf

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Alberta Bound, thanks very much for a very informative post!

Regards
G2G
 

mariomike

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Sorry for snipping the excellent post in Reply #228.

Do I think in the RCMP that we deserve more than Muni Cops, yes.

Feds vs "Munis" ? Sounds like a  :worms:  :)

So that they don’t lose that feeling of serving their communities.

I would  like to comment on that.

The many transfers during an RCMP career have been described on here many times.

I have read discussions whether "munis" have more "local knowledge", and more invested in community relations, than RCMP members subject to being transferred in and out.

Worst Toronto muni could do is they transfer you to Scarborough.  :)

Should all nurses with a Degree get paid more than a paramedic?

I know better than to have that conversation with my wife.  :)






 

mariomike

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lenaitch said:
I don't think I ever knew or heard of a professional firefighter patching over to police service, and vaguely recall a member who came over from EMS.  It might happen more within municipalities where the employer, pensions, etc. are the same. 

Pretty bizarre situation where I worked. We had Agencies, Boards, Commissions, Departments ( ABCD's ) and Services.

The Department of Emergency Services ( Fire and Paramedic ) have been separate divisions within the same department and same employer since 1998. Toronto Police Services is completely separate.

Paramedic Communications are in "the fishbowl" in the Atrium of Toronto Emergency Services HQ. TFS Communications are on the third floor.

I know some of our Emergency Medical Dispatchers ( EMD's ) have taken the elevator up to the third floor and become Fire dispatchers. Supposedly, it's a lot easier to work there.

Here's where it really gets weird. From there, they go to TFS Operations as firefighters. I've heard the same thing about some of our Emergency Vehicle Technicians ( EVT's ) and our Logistics people ( Storemen - Drivers ).

Whether true or not, I can't say. But, the stories we used to hear from our support people about their improved Quality of Life improvements in TFS support operations ( like Communications, Logistics and vehicle maintenance ) were legendary.

My information may be a little out of date. But, that's the way I understood it. Because somehow they are all under the same umbrella of TPFFA Local 3888 IAFF.

I'm not an SME. But, that was my understanding of transfers to different divisions, within the same department, of the same employer after the 1998 Meg-City aka mega-mess amalgamation.



lenaitch said:
Movement between employers within the same profession is much more common.

Seems to be.

I have been fortunate that I have been able to orientate several of our recruit classes and it was refreshing to see such a young class this time. The class was mainly Fire College Graduates and it also had members with past fire service experience. I had the chance to speak to some and I found it interesting that those fire fighters with many years experience with a full-time fire department elsewhere were willing to leave to pursue there “dreams” as they put it and work for Toronto Fire. It made me feel a little bit special that I have been a part of an organization that others envy and want to be a part of as well.
http://www.torontofirefighters.org/OSS/images/firewatch/spring2009.pdf
page 8

The same seemed to be true within our Dept.





 

lenaitch

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Great post Alberta Bound.  Hopefully with the coming bargaining unit your Code of Conduct process will offer better equity, like legal representation.  When I started out, formal disciplinary hearings were rare unless the event was way serious.  Typically, you paraded to the District Commander, got yelled at most effectively, a note on your file and that was it.  Occasionally, you would get transferred (they can't use transfer as a form of punishment anymore and, besides, it costs them too much).  Now, the number of active Conduct charges at any one time, as well as suspension, is disheartening.  I dislike that the system became more structured and formal, but along with that came Association and legal representation.

I found it interesting that those fire fighters with many years experience with a full-time fire department elsewhere were willing to leave to pursue there “dreams” as they put it and work for Toronto Fire

Conversely, I know a number of police and fire who left Toronto for smaller communities.  TPS used to complain that they paid to train recruits only to lose them to smaller departments, sometimes right out of police college.  Likely happens a lot less now since they are very few small departments left in Ontario.



 

mariomike

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lenaitch said:
Conversely, I know a number of police and fire who left Toronto for smaller communities.  TPS used to complain that they paid to train recruits only to lose them to smaller departments, sometimes right out of police college.  Likely happens a lot less now since they are very few small departments left in Ontario.

They would lose their seniority. But, on the other hand, they might survive longer. The call volume in this town is - literally - back breaking.

Toronto Police communications operators answer over 2,000,000 calls per year.

One thing about Toronto emergency services. They do offer opportunities that might not be available in other municipalities.

I understand RCMP and OPP* do offer a lot of opportunities for their members. But, smaller municipal services might not.

For example, I was able to get off the cars when I was 26, to work our emergency buses and specialized trucks. For a PRes MSE Op, it seemed logical.

That was through the "Relative Ability Process", rather than the "Senior Qualified" process. Because at that age, eight years of seniority was next to nothing.

Later, seniority got me on to a better schedule,

Mon, Tues, Weds, Thurs, Fri  0700 - 1900

Mon, Tues, Weds    0700 - 1900

Mon, Tues    0700 - 1900

Rinse and repeat. That was all there was to it. 

OPP*

I've got to say a word about the OPP. I remember when the father of one of my childhood friends joined the OPP. Somehow, he stayed in Toronto. He was on their Vice Squad.

He wrote me a letter of reference, and spoke to them on the phone when they called him, when I applied at the personnel office at City Hall. Coming from a police officer, it meant a lot to me.

Personally, I think he laid the praise on a bit thick.  :) But, I was indeed grateful, as I had lived across the street from him all my life, and had been in his home many times. He knew I came from a good family.

He was a real role model. Not just for me, but for everyone in our neighbourhood. One of the finest men I ever knew. Reminded me a lot of my uncle, who was a policeman in Toronto. 

 

Haggis

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Following the lead of the  RCMP, the CBSA has banned the TBL emblem from the workplace in any form.
 

AndCurt

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Wow, for a discussion on patches, you all sure did cover a wide “patch” of ground. Lots of good discussion and many good points.

So. I just wanted to add in a few things. But before I get started I wanted to thank Brihard for all the great work. There are some terrific explanations on here. As usual, it’s a pleasure to read your stuff.

First, All good cops hate bad cops. Period, full stop. I am not talking about cops who make stupid mistakes or are just not good at the job. Those we have opinions on. Mainly thanks for trying, don’t let the door hit you on the way out. All businesses and agencies have those people. What I mean is those cops, convicted or not, who commit criminality. In 32 years with the Mounted Police 25+ Regular and 6 Aux I investigated / arrested a number of Mounties for criminal acts. Like all groups we have bad apples. Like all good groups we would like them to have an opportunity to experience the court process from the other side. We try very hard to do full impartial investigations and give them that chance.

But here is the thing. We are bound to give them the same Rights as all other Canadians. The same due process. So when you complain about some bad cop getting off in the Courts or getting a penalty other than getting fired under the Code of Conduct. Don’t blame the front line members. The cop you see on the street. The system isn’t perfect and not all bad cops get fired or get jail. As much as we can wish.

Some want cops fired instantly for any (perceived) transgression. Skip the investigation and throw away due process. Never going to happen and neither should it. One, it isn’t fair. Two, if we don’t have faith in the system how would you expect us to uphold it. I heard accountability mentioned. 100% for it. No question about it. Good cops, the vast majority of cops. Are for it. I heard someone say that they don’t care if a cop gets ruined by an investigation. Why not? I care about every person I detained in an investigation who ultimately had no involvement. I feel sad about every investigation that didn’t get the time or effort to give the victim the closure they deserved. I am mad for every person who was accused of something that I was forced to arrest and put in the system till we could get the evidence to know the truth. Why don’t you care?! Cops are just those members of the public doing this full time. But we can only do this honourably and professionally with your support.

In the last 16 years I spent 4 as a Unit 2 I/c, 8 as a Unit Commander in 5 different detachments. You want stress. Be the #1 or #2 in a small (5-10 member) detachment and charge one of your guys Code or Criminally, knowing that he will be your backup next Friday night. You want pride, be there on Friday when your deciding how long you can keep talking to the drunk guy with the 30/30 who has his wife and kids in the house, with ERT 12 hrs away and that same member has your back 100% throughout the event.

I also spent 2 yrs in a position “assisting” members with their grievances, Codes, Performance issues and when they got arrested. I saw great members put through the ringer wrongly and others not held accountable. One of the first things I learned was about Administrative Case Law. That’s the “average” someone gets for a similar offence. I saw people in the Code of Conduct (that I was assisting!) that I thought should be fired. Who Conduct Section or Adjudications in Ottawa told me would get between A and B because that was the “standard”. Do you know where that “standard” came from? Previous rulings within the RCMP, other Police Services, even other professions. Doctors, Lawyers, Etc. I saw a couple members the RCMP actually discharged. Who I thought should have left. Who got lawyers and convinced a Federal Court to order the RCMP to rehire them. As the punishment was too severe.................

So a few facts:
Training Standards. Tell me what you want, because I am never opposed to training. But to increase training you need to hire more cops. Because in general for RCMP members, after you take off 11 Stats, 4 weeks leave (average) this leaves you 46 weeks in a year. In contract policing, we then generally need every member for 42 to 44 weeks in a year operationally tasked. During those days there is not often time to do any real training. Just the sea of online courses that continuously are being made mandatory. That leaves 2 to 4 weeks for training in a year. That’s it, that’s all.

Accountability:What would you like?
  • We have Performance standards. Start of year goals, learning plans, ongoing performance management, mid year reviews and year end assessments. But the people who manage those are also your operational supervisors every day. Every time someone adds another form or some other administrative task, it takes away from operational supervision.
  • You make a big mistake on a file (bigger than unit performance management) expect an outside NCO or Officer to be assigned to do an Incident Review. The results of that go to at least the Division 2 I/c if not the CO and can go to the Commissioner. That can commence career altering consequences.
  • if there is any indication of a breach of the Code of Conduct, expect to be Investigated. Expect it will be months before you get the result. Also since it is not criminal, you have no right to counsel. Plus you have a “Duty to Report”. In other words tell us everything but the very narrow point of the incriminating evidence. We even have Community Observers on many of these investigations. Many Indigenous related files.
  • Of course there is the ever present Statutory investigation. Any perceived misuse of force can give you the opportunity to speak to a lawyer and wait 12 ish months to know the outcome.
  • We also have Civil Court. Lawyers suing to get compensation from the Govt for all manner of imagined transgressions. The best part is where DOJ tells you that if in their opinion they feel you “Acted outside the Scope of your Duty” that they will recommend that the Govt not indemnify you in the proceedings. Of course since you are getting the nice DOJ lawyer for free. The Govt won’t reimburse you for your own lawyer. The guy suing for injuries after taking off from the police and crashing the stolen car and being injured. All because the bad police officer tried to pull him over.
  • Lastly there is my favourite. The Public Complaint Process. I won’t give you my opinion of the present Chair of the CRCC nor her “qualifications”. Let me be blunt. If the CRCC wants to take over ALL parts of these, including hiring their own investigators. Have at it. In my experience with More than a couple of hundred of these. Less than 5% have any substance. Some of my favourites:
  • officer didn’t give the person a ride home from jail,
  • officer gave them a ticket,
  • officer wasn’t wearing their hat,
  • officer was blocking the road (for a parade),
  • more than 2 officers had lunch together,
  • officer took more than 15 min for a coffee break
  • officer used the siren to respond to an emergency and woke them up,
  • officer did X, Y or Z to them in cells (disproved by the 24 video system In cells constantly running)
  • officer didn’t charge X politician for (insert perceived transgression),
  • officer assisted Child and Family Services in seizing their child,
Etc.
To be perfectly fair. There are some valid complaints. Which result in Codes or Stat charges against members.
There are also people who call in complaints WEEKLY of the type listed above.
My own theory on why Often we may be behind in completing these is that since there are not designated positions who do all these (instead it is those same front line supervisors, but usually from a separate detachment) That the volume simply is too much to do as an extra on top of your regular position.
- We aren’t even talking about Fatality Inquiries and other Extra judicial forums.
This isn’t a Pity party. Just some insight into the regular Oversite. What more would you like?

You don’t want cops to go to Child Welfare calls, mental health calls, wellness checks. Well neither do we. But do you know who most often calls us to those calls; CFS workers, Mental Health workers (including DRs) and the family and friends of the person. Do you know what a wellness check is? It is most often to see if the person has harmed themselves. Usually the friends and family won’t themselves go as they have been assaulted in the past. You wish we had more deescalation training. Sure. But I have talked to the guy with the rifle for hrs, more than once. I have pleaded with the responsible community member who was off their meds (including my next door neighbour in one community) and got them to the hospital many times. I have also been jumped by the hiding person who tried to disarm me and kill me with my own gun. Talking only goes so far. And it always sounds easier in a classroom, in a big Center, told by a “professional” than what actually happens 100 Kms from backup at 0300.

Now, forget about the Toronto Cop making $150,000 in OT alone due to extra duties and traffic court. Let’s talk regular cops. Do I think as a S/Sgt that I make a pretty good living. $114,000 per yer base. Yep not bad. Now of course my wife always compares how I left a good job at a good company where I was making over $50,000 year in 1994 to join the RCMP for $28,000 going up to $45,000 after 3 years. Hmmmmmm, doesn’t sound as good now.
Okay let’s use Education as a criteria. Someone on here thinks Grade 12 vs a BA, vs an MA is the basis for what people should get paid. But in general is that true? Is that the “standard”. Well not really. In some industries / businesses education is needed. But it doesn’t always translate into a bigger salary. The “market” is what dictates salaries. Should all nurses with a Degree get paid more than a paramedic? What about tradesman? What about a teacher versus a cop. I can tell you what my wife thinks with her B Ed. I can tell you in my service I was offered a number of jobs in the oil patch for significantly more than I do the RCMP. An ex coworker is making $30,000 a month as a consultant. Now,
Would I like a raise, sure. Do I complain that I don’t make enough, no. Do I think in the RCMP that we deserve more than Muni Cops, yes. At least the same in base salary and better coverage for housing losses moving around and some extra for all the times we lost my wife’s salary, benefits and pension due to all the moves. Now I don’t think you can compare the RCMP to the CAF not even to MPs. It’s just not the same. You pay a cop a decent salary in the hope that they do the right thing. That they look after you and yours with as much care and compassion as they would their own and free from corruption. On nice days as well as in miserable weather in the middle of the night 200 kms from nowhere. Not just in downtown Toronto, Montreal, Surrey, but also in Goose Bay, Peace River and in Cross Lake and Chateh. So that they don’t lose that feeling of serving their communities. But ultimately, I decided to join. No different than every other Mountie and no different than every member of the CF. I Signed on the dotted line and took the Queens shilling. Whatever she decided that may be.

I will leave you with this. The Order of Police Merit almost never goes to operational cops. Management only folks, dogs and harness bulls keep off the grass. We almost never get a MSC or MSM no matter what, and again it isn’t awarded to the front line. The odd bravery decoration here and there and a smattering of Commissioner's Commendations but nothing compared to the work the members are actually doing. When I was near the end of my tour in Afghanistan the CAF told me the regs at that time allowed the CDS to award the police mentors in mission the GCS as we were armed, operationally deployed and imbedded right in CAF units. But alas they said the CAF members were unhappy about civilians getting the SWASM previously. So it was a GSM and I couldn’t even receive it with my platoon. It was presented in a quiet corner out of the way at KAF so as not disturb anyone at TF-K. No I am not shedding a tear for I am proud of my GSM and more of the time I served and those which I did it with. I more wished that the RCMP would have a 5th Battle Honour proudly displayed on our Guidon, “Afghanistan”.

I say this to show that the front line of the RCMP in the way of recognition is truly the red jacketed step child. So while a thin blue line on a small blue Canada flag may seem silly to you and an affront to those in Ottawa. It is for us who every day go out with the best of intentions. A display to those who will have our back, that we shall have theirs.

Thank you for your time.

GDH
There are many of us outside the Frontline who recognize that GD punches above their weight in bravery and outstanding work. Some of us are trying to change that current culture of a lack of recognition. Often, there is a lack of awareness of those actions caused by immediate supervisors not taking the time to forward their names up the Chain. The other side of that coin is senior management not appreciating those actions for the worth that they truly are. Change can only start somewhere, even at the lower ranks.

And on the Thin Blue Line Patches....frontline are still wearing it. A line has to be drawn somewhere to the culture of subjective offense to everything and anything.
 
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Haggis

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There are many of us outside the Frontline who recognize that GD punches above their weight in bravery and outstanding work. Some of us are trying to change that current culture of a lack of recognition. Often, there is a lack of awareness of those actions caused by immediate supervisors not taking the time to forward their names up the Chain. The other side of that coin is senior management not appreciating those actions for the worth that they truly are. Change can only start somewhere, even at the lower ranks.
That's a problem across government and emergency services writ large. Often the nomination process is very onerous and I've seen many cases where the quality of the nomination narrative carried more weight than the quality of the deed itself. There's lots of discussion on these boards about why the honours and recognition system in Canada is the way it is and there is some serious second-guessing underway about bravery decorations from the Afghanistan war.
 

Alberta Bound

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There are many of us outside the Frontline who recognize that GD punches above their weight in bravery and outstanding work. Some of us are trying to change that current culture of a lack of recognition. Often, there is a lack of awareness of those actions caused by immediate supervisors not taking the time to forward their names up the Chain. The other side of that coin is senior management not appreciating those actions for the worth that they truly are. Change can only start somewhere, even at the lower ranks.

And on the Thin Blue Line Patches....frontline are still wearing it. A line has to be drawn somewhere to the culture of subjective offense to everything and anything.
I agree that some times it is hard to get nominations from the front line. But I know some of that is people just figuring why bother. I was on an H&A committee. Often we saw members actions that were more in line with a pat on the back getting pushed up because it was politically expedient for one reason or another.
While outstanding work which was nominated was shunted aside because a senior officer was opposed.
I know of three CIVPOL ( an RCMP Cst and two Sgts RCMP and Ottawa) in Afghanistan who were nominated for truly outstanding work. None got support from the A/Commr in mission nor the BGen (Comd TFK). While on the CAF side we saw quotas for awards. I even saw where EUPOL came to award medals for outstanding work outside the wire to a dozen CIVPOL. The medals were kept “secure” for the appropriate time. I know of at least 4 of those members that never received those awards. The medals simply ”disappeared”.
I think our present structure of the awards process being secret fosters the issues. Increased transparency would help shed light on decisions made and placed on the record.
 

AndCurt

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I agree that some times it is hard to get nominations from the front line. But I know some of that is people just figuring why bother. I was on an H&A committee. Often we saw members actions that were more in line with a pat on the back getting pushed up because it was politically expedient for one reason or another.
While outstanding work which was nominated was shunted aside because a senior officer was opposed.
I know of three CIVPOL ( an RCMP Cst and two Sgts RCMP and Ottawa) in Afghanistan who were nominated for truly outstanding work. None got support from the A/Commr in mission nor the BGen (Comd TFK). While on the CAF side we saw quotas for awards. I even saw where EUPOL came to award medals for outstanding work outside the wire to a dozen CIVPOL. The medals were kept “secure” for the appropriate time. I know of at least 4 of those members that never received those awards. The medals simply ”disappeared”.
I think our present structure of the awards process being secret fosters the issues. Increased transparency would help shed light on decisions made and placed on the record.
You and I both agree the system needs to change. Again, change only can happen within a certain sphere of influence.
 
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