Police Issued Weapons, Training and Equipment

[Blackhorse7]

No arguement there...

I don't want to hijack the theme of this thread, but the gun laws in Canada are exactly why I have not bought any more firearms.  I suppose it would be different if I were allowed to carry my personal weapon for duty (read Springfield 1911), but that will never happen.

 

[Thompson_JM]

...There is also the question of over-penetration by the round itself. Even though the 5.56 ropund is a "tumble" round it could conceivably over-penetrate and hit something/one else close by or behind the origional target.   I suspect (although not sure) that there is probably a round specially designed for LE to correct this...

You are Correct Slim. Having Talked with the Peel Regional Tac Team they informed me that although they train with FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) rounds, During an accual deployment all their weapons will be carrying JHP (Jacketed Hollow Point) this includes the C8 Carbine.

This was also confirmed by talking to a Sgt. from the Durham regional Tactical Rescue Unit.

(Career Fair Day can be fun and informative )

 

[ramy]

Police in Abbotsford, BC are being issued the Diemaco C8A2 for patrol officers.

I lost the link for the article, will post it when I find it.

 

[KevinB]

On retension - more police are killed by their (or other police) weapons that have been taken durin a struggle (at least so said the last FBI stat I looked at on the issue)

Pockets are actually a terrible spot to draw from the front sight can get hung up pretty easily and then you drop the gun and look like and ass    The point is spot on however - practise practise practise.

I got my info on the RCMP C8 fairly high up - it is funding dependant currently.  The C8 is much easier for officers of smaller staure to qualify with - the Remington 700 sniper rifles have nothing to do with the C8 - I was informed they were being refitted to take a suppressor (read threading the barrel).


FWIW My last GF enjoyed firing my Kimber .45 much more than my 9mm guns (BHP or Sig) - the recoil is a slower rock she said.  BTW I like .45 single action - cocked and locked baby!

 

[Kal]

Kevin
    Heard the same thing regarding cops being killed with their own or with buddys gun.  I think that where more training should be brought in not a new piece of kit.  Police in intial training get what able what 8 hours of hand to hand  'defensive' training and about 2 hours of ASP while on course?  I beilieve the RCMP and Provincial Police get more, though.  Perhaps some of the cops on this forum could chime in about training time?  How about rather than just issueing a holster that no one can draw a pistol from train the officers more about weapon retention and how they can go about it without needing a neat holster.
    When I look at the situation of police being shot with their own pistols it all goes back to a lack of training, if one become entangled in a fight for the weapon their are many things you can do to become the victor in such a situation.  The the weapon is already out of the holster, so this is where true police hand to hand skills come into play.  This is realistically life and death now, one has to remember the individual is the weapon, not the tool, the officer rocks back and forth struggling with the criminal rather than elbow the guy in the side of the head or neck, break a couple fingers, give 'em a knee to the 'boys', etc. etc.  Even spitting in the guys face wouldn't be too bad of a distraction....  Then when the investigation rolls around say it all happened in the heat of battle and his fingers broke with in the struggle........ 
    As is it painfully obvious I hate the retention holster, while yes, in has it's postives, it has a lot of negatives.  I would rather see police being training more rather than getting a piece of kit to solve it.  It all really boils down to training, and while yes there a many excellent officers out there, there are also as many ones that have become lax and God forbid one of those officers need to rely on their forgotten skills. 

As John Pellegrini once said to me, if all you carry around is a hammer, everthing become a nail, if all you carry around is a gun everything is a bulls-eye.....  Meaning, if you're only trained with the one thing the most you'll use it the most.

 

[OatmealSavage]

World Class Retention Holster -$500
Jujitsu Classes for the rest of your career - $18 000
Getting shot with your own gun because you trusted your unarmed combat skills to defeat a couple of 250lb career violent criminals on methamphetamine - priceless.

I call it the Bruce Lee myth. There are literally thousands of people in Canada who could handle you like a child, and any three ordinary men, or women probably, could also. No matter how long you've been training. By all means train, but you can't depend on it. Use a retention holster. People have died to bring you that lesson.

As Carlos Newtion once told me... well actually he didn't say anything he just choked me out like I didn't outweigh him by 50lbs.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Thank you,Oatmeal for a whole lot of wisdom.
If your counting on unarmed combat skills to save you, chances are you already screwed up REAL bad with the most important part,...common sense.[not saying that they aren't nice to have, but....]

 

[Slim]

Bruce (and Oatmeal)

Very true!

I have been in private security for 7 years now (including bodyguarding) and have yet to use any martial arts training that I have...Despite the fact that unless you have some form of documented unarmed skills you'll never get a good CP position.

Weird!

(Jump to previous topic)
I have now discovered why using a holster in more than one spot, not to mention using holsters that break a different way from one another, is a bad idea.
I was on the range doing transition drills from the shotgun to the pistol the other day and found that using different holsters in different spots means that your gun hand has to go looking for the F#@&ING pistol if you keep switching them around! From now on I am sticking to one!

Cheers

Slim

 

[Kal]

Yeah, what you guys (Oatmeal, Bruce) is very true.  My point was, I'd rather have my hand to hand skills, than no skills, and know that I can get my weapon out of it's holster immediately because of all the practice that I put into it.  How many officers can say that?  I will put all that time, money and energy into training, so that I don't have to rely on my holster.  Or so that I will not have to draw my weapon is not needed, or putting an arm-bar on someone instead of tackling them where their head smacks a curb and I'm hit with a lawsuit.....  If I relied only on my unarmed skills, then why would I carry a knife now, or a pistol if I were police? 

Yes, a lot of martial artists are fall into wrong thinking where they beleive doing a jumping spinning heel kick on the street to be victorious.  I know that if " three ordinary men" came at me, yeah, I may go to the hospital, but at least two would be coming with me.  Saying that there are thousands that could handle me like a child, On the reverse I could handle thousands because of my skills.  Besides I'm not sure how you can say so conclusively that three could handle me no prob....  You've never seen me, nor know what I am capable of. 

All I am saying that there is a lack of training happening with some officers and some the kit issued shouldn't be relied on so whole heartly.  Would you not agree?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Kal,
Your right, we don't know you and I'm not trying to start a war here but,.....
Quote,
Saying that there are thousands that could handle me like a child, On the reverse I could handle thousands because of my skills.   Besides I'm not sure how you can say so conclusively that three could handle me no prob....   You've never seen me, nor know what I am capable of.

........I can say  that quote right there is the difference between youthful exuberation and mature knowledge.   I can't speak for Oatmeal, as I don't know what he does, but I will speak for Slim and myself saying that if you walked into either one of our different worlds right now with that attitude the next sound you would hear is the door closing behind you. Not an insult, but we were all full of P and V once, but the ones that made it have turned the P and V into something palatable.
.....3 people? ....thats 6 legs trying their best to bury themselves in your groin and after that...nothing really matters.
....3 people come after me, well lets hope the flight part of the "fight or flight" theory is totally accurate.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Kal,

Still waiting for your buddies proof.

 

[Kal]

Bruce, I get what you're saying.  To be honest, I was thinking about it last night and I figured that I let my ego get in the way of my thinking.  Sometimes, I tend to push the training regime to much that I temporarily lose focus of the issues at hand.  Would I use a rentention holster, Yes, but only after many hours of training.  I do agree to that, many have lost their lives in brining that lesson, it's a shame it just took so many.  I believe the overall feeling from all of us is to train and practice though.  Am I correct?  I also appoligize to any that may have been offended my anything I have said and for coming across as, well, 'youthful'.  My appoligizes to Ex-Dragoon also for hijacking his thread.

Recceguy, I won't be able to reach him until tomorrow night, so unfortunately you'll have to wait until then.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

No worries its all very interesting hence my modification to the title to reflect it.

 

[Blackhorse7]

Kal,

As a current RCMP member I agree with some of your comment, and I disagree with others.  Let me explain:

1.  Should there be more training?  ABSOLUTELY.  Members are given quite a bit of Police Defensive Tactics training, but it covers the broad spectrum of the use of force.  Some time is spent on weapon retention, but not lots.  But that being said, it falls on the individual member to keep his skills up to par.  It's like anything else.  If you don't keep doing something, not only are you not going to get better at it, but you will start to lose those skills.

2.  Should the Level III holsters be replaced.  ABSOLUTELY NOT.  For starters, my above comments make this immediately relevant.  While members should practice to keep up their skills, few do.  I would not feel comfortable walking a beat with a guy who only touches his gun at annual qualification, but to now put that weapon in a less secure package is asking for trouble.  There have been documented cases where an officer has been knocked out cold, and the felon still could not get the officers gun out of the holster, because they didn't know how to operate it.  If that felon did get the gun out, he likely would have executed the officer or killed others.  Secondly, it's not like these holsters are combination safes.  The RCMP course of fire for pistol is designed at stages so that if you cannot clear your holster quickly, you will not be able to get enough rounds off to pass that stage.  And the holster currently in use works with the natural movement of your draw.  It becomes second nature.  But again, practice makes the movement all that much smoother and faster.

It's now being reinforced to use that at the beginning and end of shift, that you load and unload as you would in a gunfight.  It gets you into the practice of drawing properly, loading/unloading properly (eyes on threat), and visually scanning after loading for further threats.  I admit I felt like a dork doing that in the locker room the first couple of times, but now it has become second nature.

 

[sguido]

2 cents...

Re: holsters.   Recruits, from their first few days, wear their duty belt with the hard rubber 'Redman' gun in their holster.   One quickly learns how to remove it cleanly from their holster, or that of a fallen officer.   When one is properly trained, it isn't difficult to get it out fast.

Re: empty hand Use of Force.   Initial training provides about 20 odd hours of this.   (I'm including Service training, plus time at the Ontario Police College...which new recruits must pay for themselves.   Makes one wish for the good old days when the taxpayer paid for your training...)

While it is always nice to know a form of self defence, the hard truth of the matter comes down to what is interpreted by the courts and the public.   If you use a method that was *not* taught to you, you are open to a lawsuit.   So...if you're in a scrap, and use 'unofficial' self defence to break the bad guy's arm, you can get sued.   Now...if you used your baton and broke his arm...that's fine, because the baton is a less lethal item issued to you, and broken arms can result from the correct use of the baton.   (But you better use the equipment the way you were trained...use your handcuffs as 'brass knuckles' and you're toast.)

Re: less lethal vs. non lethal.   The term has come courtesy of our lawsuit happy friends south of the border.   Less lethal implies that it *could* cause death, while non lethal implies it *cannot* cause death. When an item is said to be non lethal, it opens up the possibility of a wrongful death suit on those occasions where the criminal has an adverse reaction to the OC, Taser, or whatever.  

Re: C8's replacing shotguns.   Too 'militaristic'; the citizenry does not want to see the average officer armed with "a machine gun".   Then there's the expense, modifying scout cars to carry them, training, requal, ammo...these thing add up to a Police Service Board saying, "No."   But mainly it's the first reason...you had to see how hard some Services had to fight to get black shirts instead of the light blue ones.   Eventually the issue of officer safety won out...but what a political mess that one was.   Doubt this?   Remember...the Metropolitan Toronto Police Force became the Metropolitan Toronto Police Service because "Force" was, among other things, too offensive.   I've viewed complaints about cargo pants with the statement that it was 'too militaristic'!   (But what's worse...that somebody complained...or that somebody had to respond...at length...to this complaint?)

Re: what's in use:  
TPS - Glocks in .40 cal, with a few dinosaurs 'grandfathering' in their .38's.
YRP - custom Beretta Centurions in .40 cal, but Beretta expects continual orders on custom products, so Glocks will be the most likely replacement.
OPP - Sigs in .40 cal.

Universal - Shotguns of various makes, OC, and 21' Asps or straight sticks.   PR-24's...the side handle batons...are supposed to be phased out as it takes actual skill to use one properly, while, "a straight stick works on basic 'physical memory' principles...you know, caveman with stick bash head."   (Yes...that's the actual terminology used by a consulting expert physician!)

 

[Kal]

I don't think the ret lll holsters should be replaced, but not just relied on to be the equalizer or the end all be all, I don't any piece of kit should be.  I also understand the legalities of using technique that is not doctrine or policy, but I would rather be judged by my peers, than carried by six...  I realize that the drawing a pistol from a ret lll holster isn't hard, with training.  My original point was/is that is it a sad story that some police do not keep up their training and lose and/or forget those skills and simply rely on something else instead of training.  Then when things do get ugly, someone get hurt or worse.  Shoulda' said that a long time ago.  I liked the point of how things might be interpreted in court.  I believe that a self-defence program should include the legalities of force and possible injury and the physchological  effects and ramifications of using such force. 

 

[Blackhorse7]

Actually Kal, that's a good point...

The RCMP PDT training does incorporate a little information that helps with court articulation.   When dealing with a resistant/combative person, it is constantly being reinforced to use strong, clear commands like "POLICE!   STOP RESISTING!   GET DOWN!"   This does two things... it gives very clear, simple direction to the "goal orientated" suspect, and it creates witnesses.   When people on the street are interviewed, one of the big things they will remember is those shouted commands.  

"Yes, I saw the whole thing.   The officer was telling him to stop resisting, and he wouldn't."

 

[Kal]

It's funny you should bring that up Blackhorse.  When in high stress situations individual often remember feeling or hearing something about a situation or both.  Whenever a witness recounts a situation you often hear them say, I heard the door slam open and all of a sudden I was on the floor and I could feel their fists hitting me while I heard him them shouting.  Well, what did they look like, "I don't know/remember."  Say if ever you're in court, what sounds worse, I shot and killed the guy because he was beating me up, or I kept telling the guy to stop what he was doing and just tried to protect myself until he stopped.  End situtation, bad guy is still dead...  Goes back to even what weapon and its name is. ie; I used my rambo first blood commando killer with the blood groove or my fishermans friend pocket utility knife.....  About the example of the guy resisting could be used in a self defense scenario also. 

 

[Kal]

    Sorry, for the wait guys, but I didn't get a chance to speak with this friend of mine regarding the question of which police services were making it policy to carry unloaded weapons.  He had told me that we remembered it from an episode of W5 News and how they were trying to draw some comparisons between Canadian and American police.  He recalled that there were a couple, but couldn't remember all the names.  The one he did remember though, was of one force just outside of Wichita, Kansas.  I'm sure W5 would still have the episode, but I'm not about to call them up for it.....  Hope this helps.

 

[Slim]

Tue, January 18, 2005


More power to the Taser

PROVINCE OKS WEAPON

By ROB GRANATSTEIN, CITY HALL BUREAU

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2005/01/18/901979-sun.html

THE USE of Tasers by Ontario police forces got a jolt of good news as Queen's Park approved the latest model for use. The X-26 Taser is smaller, delivers less of a charge and records the time, date and length of zap given by the weapon every time it's used.

"This is a better piece of equipment," said Deputy Chief Steve Reesor of the Toronto Police. "This provides a clear, precise electronic record of every time it is discharged."

Toronto Police have been trying to get the weapon for front-line supervisors but have been stymied by the police services board and budget constraints. The cost of 500 weapons is more than $1 million.

The ministry of community, safety and correction services approved the the X-26 Taser on Friday.

It is the newer model, following on the heels of the bigger M-26 Taser, which doesn't have the same accountability features.

"All police leaders across the country or North America recognize this as an important development in the use of less lethal force," Reesor said.

The province said it approved the Taser following a pilot project by Toronto Police tactical officers.