Pistol Replacement

[army]

Posted by "Geoff Tyrell" <paraprimadonna@hotmail.com> on Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:41:40 PDT
does anyone know the current status of pistols in the CF? i know that
Browning 9mm‘s are used, and there is a small of SiGs for aircrew use.
the Browning has been in service since 1943...any word on a replacement?
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by Gunner <randr1@home.com> on Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:58:24 -0600
Why would the air force need SiGs? I don‘t think the pistols are
allowed in 5 star hotels while the air force is on "operations".
I‘ve heard the Brownings are to be replaced, however, I haven‘t seen any
timelines. The Browning IMHO is an adequate combat pistol. Easy to use
and if you fire enough rounds, you may hit something.
Geoff Tyrell wrote:
>
> does anyone know the current status of pistols in the CF? i know that
> Browning 9mm‘s are used, and there is a small of SiGs for aircrew use.
> the Browning has been in service since 1943...any word on a replacement?
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by Derrick Forsythe <Derrick.Forsythe@gov.ab.ca> on Mon, 26 Jun 2000 08:28:58 -0600
I haven‘t heard anything - but if it ain‘t broke - why fix it
> -----Original Message-----
> From:Geoff Tyrell [SMTParaprimadonna@hotmail.com]
> Sent:Sunday, June 25, 2000 7:42 PM
> To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> Subjectistol Replacement
>
>
> does anyone know the current status of pistols in the CF? i know that
> Browning 9mm‘s are used, and there is a small of SiGs for aircrew use.
> the Browning has been in service since 1943...any word on a replacement?
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by "Steve Kuervers" <skuervers@hotmail.com> on Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:15:59 PDT
The probem with the current pistol is the great variety of performance.
Some of the pistols are in great shape... some of them aren‘t. I‘m told by
one of my WO who is most definately a fire-arms expert that this is common
for this particular pistol.
Interestingly enough, when I was still in the Regs, and posted to St. Jean
for french-language training, the former air force base had some incredibly
accurate pistols, and an unbelievable amount of amunition. We fired the
pistols at least once a week for almost 10 months, most of us did it twice a
week.
Steve
>From: Derrick Forsythe
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘"
>Subject: RE: Pistol Replacement
>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 08:28:58 -0600
>
>I haven‘t heard anything - but if it ain‘t broke - why fix it
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:Geoff Tyrell [SMTParaprimadonna@hotmail.com]
> > Sent:Sunday, June 25, 2000 7:42 PM
> > To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > Subjectistol Replacement
> >
> >
> > does anyone know the current status of pistols in the CF? i know that
> > Browning 9mm‘s are used, and there is a small of SiGs for aircrew use.
> > the Browning has been in service since 1943...any word on a replacement?
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by "Michael O‘Leary" <moleary@bmts.com> on Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:48:04 -0400
The accuracy of each Browning aside from the competence of the firer is
pretty well a function of age and wear on the pistols‘ moving parts. I
remember Battalion pistol teams in the mid-eightys scouring base weapon
vaults for late series 7Ts ? weapons with little wear for transfer to
unit accounts. No rattle in the slide and clean rifling meant smaller groups.
In the hands of the average user mostly officers, of course the true
effective range of the pistol was directly proportional to the length of
the lanyard.
Officer used to carry pistols because their hands were then free for the
other tools of their trade: maps, compass, binos, radio handset, walking
stick, white china mug of rum at the Ortona crossroads
And they weren‘t tempted to participate in the firefight like they may be
with a rifle.
Platon Warrants liked them too, you could tie a pistol to a tired
Lieutenant and he could do his job and wouldn‘t wander off without it.
mike
At 11:15 AM 6/26/00 PDT, you wrote:
>The probem with the current pistol is the great variety of performance.
>Some of the pistols are in great shape... some of them aren‘t. I‘m told by
>one of my WO who is most definately a fire-arms expert that this is common
>for this particular pistol.
>
>Interestingly enough, when I was still in the Regs, and posted to St. Jean
>for french-language training, the former air force base had some incredibly
>accurate pistols, and an unbelievable amount of amunition. We fired the
>pistols at least once a week for almost 10 months, most of us did it twice a
>week.
>
>Steve
>
>>From: Derrick Forsythe
>>
>>I haven‘t heard anything - but if it ain‘t broke - why fix it
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From:Geoff Tyrell [SMTParaprimadonna@hotmail.com]
>> > Subjectistol Replacement
>> >
>> > does anyone know the current status of pistols in the CF? i know that
>> > Browning 9mm‘s are used, and there is a small of SiGs for aircrew use.
>> > the Browning has been in service since 1943...any word on a replacement?
Michael O‘Leary
Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm
The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
new ‘permanent‘ address. - MMO
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by "Chrid Loveridge" <cloveridge@hotmail.com> on Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:51:12 EDT
Just like every other piece of kit in the CF, if they are maintained
properly they will work. Yes because it‘s a weapon, barrels will wear out,
and sights will break/bend etc... but that is what we have Gun Plumbers for.
As for the Airforce carrying SIG Sauers, It doesn‘t really matter if you
give those guys SIGs or Musket Pistols they couldn‘t hit the a barn if they
standing inside it. I‘d be more apt to believe that the "wind" have the
Sigs. Not because it‘s a better pistol, but because it has more firepower
not to be confused with stopping power, both are 9mm.
>From: "Steve Kuervers"
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: RE: Pistol Replacement
>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:15:59 PDT
>
>The probem with the current pistol is the great variety of performance.
>Some of the pistols are in great shape... some of them aren‘t. I‘m told by
>one of my WO who is most definately a fire-arms expert that this is
>common
>for this particular pistol.
>
>Interestingly enough, when I was still in the Regs, and posted to St. Jean
>for french-language training, the former air force base had some incredibly
>accurate pistols, and an unbelievable amount of amunition. We fired the
>pistols at least once a week for almost 10 months, most of us did it twice
>a
>week.
>
>Steve
>
>
>>From: Derrick Forsythe
>>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>>To: "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘"
>>Subject: RE: Pistol Replacement
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 08:28:58 -0600
>>
>>I haven‘t heard anything - but if it ain‘t broke - why fix it
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From:Geoff Tyrell [SMTParaprimadonna@hotmail.com]
>> > Sent:Sunday, June 25, 2000 7:42 PM
>> > To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>> > Subjectistol Replacement
>> >
>> >
>> > does anyone know the current status of pistols in the CF? i know that
>> > Browning 9mm‘s are used, and there is a small of SiGs for aircrew
>>use.
>> > the Browning has been in service since 1943...any word on a
>>replacement?
>> >
>>________________________________________________________________________
>> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
>>http://www.hotmail.com
>> >
>> > --------------------------------------------------------
>> > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>> > message body.
>>--------------------------------------------------------
>>NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>>message body.
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by "Chrid Loveridge" <cloveridge@hotmail.com> on Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:57:21 EDT
The drawback to officers carrying pistols of course are, it alows them to
use the map/compass, and it gives the enemy a great idea of whom the
"leader" is In case of some Jr. Subalterns with not a bad idea, but as a
hole it draws a lot unwanted attention to those of whom routinely are co
located with the unfortunate pistol carrier.
>From: "Michael O‘Leary"
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: RE: Pistol Replacement
>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:48:04 -0400
>
>The accuracy of each Browning aside from the competence of the firer is
>pretty well a function of age and wear on the pistols‘ moving parts. I
>remember Battalion pistol teams in the mid-eightys scouring base weapon
>vaults for late series 7Ts ? weapons with little wear for transfer to
>unit accounts. No rattle in the slide and clean rifling meant smaller
>groups.
>
>In the hands of the average user mostly officers, of course the true
>effective range of the pistol was directly proportional to the length of
>the lanyard.
>
>Officer used to carry pistols because their hands were then free for the
>other tools of their trade: maps, compass, binos, radio handset, walking
>stick, white china mug of rum at the Ortona crossroads
>
>And they weren‘t tempted to participate in the firefight like they may be
>with a rifle.
>
>Platon Warrants liked them too, you could tie a pistol to a tired
>Lieutenant and he could do his job and wouldn‘t wander off without it.
>
>
>mike
>
>
>At 11:15 AM 6/26/00 PDT, you wrote:
> >The probem with the current pistol is the great variety of performance.
> >Some of the pistols are in great shape... some of them aren‘t. I‘m told
>by
> >one of my WO who is most definately a fire-arms expert that this is
>common
> >for this particular pistol.
> >
> >Interestingly enough, when I was still in the Regs, and posted to St.
>Jean
> >for french-language training, the former air force base had some
>incredibly
> >accurate pistols, and an unbelievable amount of amunition. We fired the
> >pistols at least once a week for almost 10 months, most of us did it
>twice a
> >week.
> >
> >Steve
> >
> >>From: Derrick Forsythe
> >>
> >>I haven‘t heard anything - but if it ain‘t broke - why fix it
> >>
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From:Geoff Tyrell [SMTParaprimadonna@hotmail.com]
> >> > Subjectistol Replacement
> >> >
> >> > does anyone know the current status of pistols in the CF? i know
>that
> >> > Browning 9mm‘s are used, and there is a small of SiGs for aircrew
>use.
> >> > the Browning has been in service since 1943...any word on a
>replacement?
>
>
>
>Michael O‘Leary
>
>Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
>http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm
>
>The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
>Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
>new ‘permanent‘ address. - MMO
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by Juno847627709@aol.com on Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:33:51 EDT
All that may be true, but is the pistol still standard issue for officers?
-Matt
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by "S. Brent Warne" <sbw@netidea.com> on Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:58:32 -0700
Matt
I think unit SOP"S play a big part in who carries what.
I would suggest that most CP bound staff officers would carry a pistol
and most line officers would carry a C7/C8. Most OC‘s / CO‘s prefer to
carry a C7 to show the members of the unit they are soldiers too. It
goes without saying that Platoon Commanders carry a C7. Anything else
would be a bullet catcher.
The previous 1 CMBG comd, Col Leslie, carried a C8.
My thoughts on the pistol are they only need to issue one round.
-----Original Message-----
From:Juno847627709@aol.com [SMTP:Juno847627709@aol.com]
Sent:Monday, June 26, 2000 12:34 PM
To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
Subject:Re: Pistol Replacement
All that may be true, but is the pistol still standard issue for
officers?
-Matt
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.
eJ8 IiQTAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy
b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAtAEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL
AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAASwAAAAAAAACBKx kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGFybXlAY2lwaGVybG9n
aWMub24uY2EAU01UUABhcm15QGNpcGhlcmxvZ2ljLm9uLmNhAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAA
AB4AAzABAAAAFwAAAGFybXlAY2lwaGVybG9naWMub24uY2EAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD DwYAAAAeAAEw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 /AR4AcAAB
AAAAFwAAAFJFOiBQaXN0b2wgUmVwbGFjZW1lbnQAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG/36jndeKJJH1LXBHU
gNVERVNUAAAAAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAAQAAAAc2J3QG5ldGlkZWEuY29t
AAMABhCC46eQAwAHECgDAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABNQVRUSVRISU5LVU5JVFNPUCJTUExBWUFCSUdQ
QVJUSU5XSE9DQVJSSUVTV0hBVElXT1VMRFNVR0dFU1RUSEFUTU9TVENQQk9VTkRTVEFGRk9GRklD
RVJTV09VTERDQVJSWUFQAAAAAAIBCRABAAAAtwMAALMDAAC8BQAATFpGdb2ed6h3AAoBAwH3IAKk
A MCAGOCaArAc2V0MCAHE4cCgwBQDvZwcnEyD/YmfQqACMggOwlvMjVmNQKACoF1YwBQCwNjAwBB
C2BuZzEwMzN7C6YF0GECQAqiCoQKgEmIIHRoC4BrIHUDAGEFQFNPUCIF8AtRecAgYSBiaWcYgArA
AwVAC4Agd2hvIGPfCsAIgQQgGcAWcC4K4xboAncIYGxkIHN1Z95nB5AFQBeAFnAgBGAccexDUBjw
CGBuHAEBkAEg5CBvASBpYwSQGmEb0 saAhjCcAQAdAbwGNAdoTUc82wLgGUeLx81Qzc4L0M4GsAF
0B0CT0PqJwQgLx0wTyNREUABEN8EkBdwGeQiJCRScxnQB D/F4Ag0AeABtAhQiDwJbMX498lwRjB
CXAcEAbwZAiRBCCVH9BvIrFJBUBnbxpS6xgAGdB1BUBzGLALgBkgvRyjUAtgKGEDoAhQbQOBjwSB
BCAh6CKxQW55F4L5GSBlbA wG7UmMBjSG C2bA/AGfF0D3AEkC4WqmZUJdEj8XZpCGAEIDExHTBN
QkcZ8ANwZCzbKvEDIEwHkCCgZTFAGgRvHAAiQSKgFqpNGMApYmf8aHQmYQOgJcIfpiehJ0P9AiBs
GMAgwDJxJGEEAQpQ/zRhINADYB2RIrEWqjg/OU/nCoQLMCCgMzYBQBUQAUA5EUBvdAWQFpAQkzE2
1CAtPNJPBRBnC4AHQP8F0AeQKcAcUDzTFqY75DuxgwsTO ZpLTE0NAFAcSCgMTgwAUAM0EBzYlQg
RgNhOgyDYg/gSgEX4G84NDc2MjegNzA5QGEG8C4xAYAgW1NNVFA6Qp/9Q6JdFqVBoAZgAjBCByLg
nx2gGLAxQERRINAyNjFAhwHQQQAwgDI6MzQqcDJNRbdUb0IHCsBteTxAYwUgLsEJAD1QYy6LAiBD
oGFFuHViajwR8UIHUmU6KnAftE0gC1F/ITAHgAIwPn8/ijs0FVI07RWQNQunFrNBLjAclRix S3B
dHIKUDFALhAZcShB/zS4HHADEFRyIBELETalAhDrBcAg9j8WpC0WaDzTWA HWR9aLxakTk9URU1A
p0lxN0AmEG92INB5CGH9D7BsHhADUhdyBCAgoBxw/zFAD7AdoRjgB4E94hakJGHVAMBqBbBkA3Bv
Sn8Y4PtdRS3RYwWgF AFQFyxKTF/JXBfJ1xEMUApQiWzIKMiuxfgHCBiBPItwkpBIhmCzyXBFqRe
tR1hZHku xIBAgBosAADABAQAAAAAAMAERABAAAAAwCAEP////9AAAcwwAkDlaffvwFAAAgwwAkD
laffvwEDAAGACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABShQAAtw0AAB4AAoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABG
AAAAAFSFAAABAAAABAAAADguMAADAAOACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAABhQAAAAAAAAsABIAI
IAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAOFAAAAAAAACwAFgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAADoUAAAAA
AAADAAaACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAQhQAAAAAAAAMAB4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAA
ABGFAAAAAAAAAwAIgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAGIUAAAAAAAAeAAmACCAGAAAAAADAAAAA
AAAARgAAAAA2hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgAKgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAN4UAAAEAAAAB
AAAAAAAAAB4AC4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADiFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAD0AAQAAAAUA
AABSRTogAAAAAAMADTT9NwAAZqI
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by "Michael O‘Leary" <moleary@bmts.com> on Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:14:57 -0400
Which of course begs the question:
Does the burden and awkwardness of the rifle sufficently compensate for
anticipating a poor standard of personal fieldcraft and concealment? :
I carried a pistol as a platoon commander and it didn‘t diminish my
capabilities. I have seen more junior officers tripping over themselves
trying to keep the rifle out of the way while they are learning/doing their
job. It‘s not because they‘re clumsy well, not all of them, the rifle can
just get in the way.
Generally, the leader in a group is picked out by the way s/he‘s waving and
shouting, and the reactions of those in the tight group of people around
him/her. While I‘m not strongly pro or con on the issue, I believe that by
the time a rifle company officer needs to use a rifle, there will be plenty
of spares lying around.
As to what the present standard is, it seems to be more of a unit SOP
thing, the current flavour-of-the-month is that they carry rifles. Although
I am sure someone can quote the chapter and verse of Section and Platoon in
Battle, likely showing the Platoon Commander‘s personal weapon to be a
rifle at least in this edition. Nobody actually reads a publication until
it can be used to support their argument anyway.
mike
At 02:57 PM 6/26/00 EDT, you wrote:
>The drawback to officers carrying pistols of course are, it alows them to
>use the map/compass, and it gives the enemy a great idea of whom the
>"leader" is In case of some Jr. Subalterns with not a bad idea, but as a
>hole it draws a lot unwanted attention to those of whom routinely are co
>located with the unfortunate pistol carrier.
Michael O‘Leary
Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm
The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
new ‘permanent‘ address. - MMO
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by "Steve Kuervers" <skuervers@hotmail.com> on Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:19:45 PDT
Personnally, I believe that most officer‘s should have both a C7 and a
pistol. The C7 can be turned in or locked up when the officer is doing CP
duties if necessary short shifts, it isn‘t worth it. I carry a pistol in
the field if I‘m acting as the Arty safety officer, just because I don‘t
like going to the field without a weapon, and the C7 gets in the way of the
safety job, where a lanyarded pistol doesn‘t.
But the image of an officer leading his men by waving his map in one hand
and his pistol in the other has got to bring a smile to any snipers out
there.
Brings back memories... Phase 2... "Mr Kuervers, take over the section, Mr.
Bloggins just dies..." as I watch one of my unsuccessful compatriots
attempt to lead us to the target waving a big white map over his head.
Steve
>From: "S. Brent Warne"
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘"
>Subject: RE: Pistol Replacement
>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:58:32 -0700
>
>Matt
>
>I think unit SOP"S play a big part in who carries what.
>
>I would suggest that most CP bound staff officers would carry a pistol and
>most line officers would carry a C7/C8. Most OC‘s / CO‘s prefer to carry a
>C7 to show the members of the unit they are soldiers too. It goes without
>saying that Platoon Commanders carry a C7. Anything else would be a bullet
>catcher.
>
>The previous 1 CMBG comd, Col Leslie, carried a C8.
>
>My thoughts on the pistol are they only need to issue one round.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:Juno847627709@aol.com [SMTP:Juno847627709@aol.com]
>Sent:Monday, June 26, 2000 12:34 PM
>To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject:Re: Pistol Replacement
>
>All that may be true, but is the pistol still standard issue for officers?
>-Matt
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
>>
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by "Bruce Williams" <Williabr@uregina.ca> on Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:13:34 -0600
I believe that most infantry platoon commanders should carry a rifle be it a
C7 or the trusty old C1A1 I carried. For most other officer jobs a rifle
just gets in the way.
My personal philosophy was that my pistol was for close in personal
protection..hence I carried mine in a shoulder holster...very much more
convenient than webbing in a CP. I always believed that if the situation I
was in required a rifle there would probably be some available from
casualties.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by Derrick Forsythe <Derrick.Forsythe@gov.ab.ca> on Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:19:30 -0600
I disagree - both the FOO and the Recce officer are pretty much useless
without a rifle - and they don‘t really get in the way
> -----Original Message-----
> From:Bruce Williams [SMTP:Williabr@uregina.ca]
> Sent:Monday, June 26, 2000 3:14 PM
> To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> Subject:Re: Pistol Replacement
>
> I believe that most infantry platoon commanders should carry a rifle be it
> a
> C7 or the trusty old C1A1 I carried. For most other officer jobs a rifle
> just gets in the way.
>
> My personal philosophy was that my pistol was for close in personal
> protection..hence I carried mine in a shoulder holster...very much more
> convenient than webbing in a CP. I always believed that if the situation I
> was in required a rifle there would probably be some available from
> casualties.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by "Steve Kuervers" <skuervers@hotmail.com> on Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:01:46 PDT
As usual Derrick and I agree on this one. Just for interest, the CF has a
new standard issue holster for the pistol. An off-the-shelf from the States
can‘t remember the manufacturer. It can be setup to work as a shoulder
holster or a belt holster, and it comes with an extension that allows it to
be belt holstered, but down on the hip with room to tie around the leg.
I tried it in the shoulder mount, works OK, but definately takes time to
configure for preference. Translation: Get one permanently issued and get
it set up so it fits for you! It appears to be designed to fit with the
new load-bearing vest, and ruck sacks. Unfortunately, it doesn‘t work with
webbing, but since most of us try to wear pistols separate from the webbing,
that‘s probably OK.
Steve
>From: Derrick Forsythe
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘"
>Subject: RE: Pistol Replacement
>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:19:30 -0600
>
>I disagree - both the FOO and the Recce officer are pretty much useless
>without a rifle - and they don‘t really get in the way
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:Bruce Williams [SMTP:Williabr@uregina.ca]
> > Sent:Monday, June 26, 2000 3:14 PM
> > To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > Subject:Re: Pistol Replacement
> >
> > I believe that most infantry platoon commanders should carry a rifle be
>it
> > a
> > C7 or the trusty old C1A1 I carried. For most other officer jobs a rifle
> > just gets in the way.
> >
> > My personal philosophy was that my pistol was for close in personal
> > protection..hence I carried mine in a shoulder holster...very much more
> > convenient than webbing in a CP. I always believed that if the situation
>I
> > was in required a rifle there would probably be some available from
> > casualties.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball <gwball@sympatico.ca> on Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:24:50 -0400
Pistols New Old, and Hofficers
Interesting subject! The fact remains, our Brownings were manufactured before
most of us were born, and while superb weapons at the time, are no longer
state-of-the-art. Not only that, but they are mostly worn out. Trust an old
handgunner - there‘s nothing worse than trying to hit something man-sized - at
any range - with a loose slide, worn locking lugs and mediochre sights. Not only
that, but frankly, the Browning HP ISN‘T the most sophisticated design on the
market any more. They were REALLY good when the standard was the Enfield .380
break-top revolver, but now....
Regards your various comments on the efficacy of having officers and selected
NCOs carrying pistols, I can only draw your attention to the magnificent works
of George Blackburn The Guns of Normandy, etc... anything which distinguishes
one man from another becomes a bullet magnet in a war zone. Contrary to many of
the PR pictures taken during WW2, most officers and NCOs at the sharp end
carried their pistols or revolvers in their pockets. With the relative
sophistication of riflry and basic tactics nowadays, I would think this kind of
deception is more valid than ever. Besides, a field officer willing to carry a
rifle into battle inspires his troops, in that it suggests he‘s going to be down
in the mud beside them, using his *superior* skills to help them take the day.
And speaking of which, it is oft said that the most dangerous being on any
battlefield is a 2LT with a map... I‘m inclined to agree... I once was one...
:-
--
Regards,
Geoff Winnington-Ball
MAPLE LEAF UP! ==>
Zephyr, Ontario, Canada
Maple Leaf Up - The Canadian Army Overseas in WW2
http://www.mapleleafup.org
1st Canadian Armoured Carrier Regiment
http://www.1cacr.org
TankNet Military Forums
http://www.tanknet.org
Chrid Loveridge wrote:
> The drawback to officers carrying pistols of course are, it alows them to
> use the map/compass..........
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by "Michael O‘Leary" <moleary@bmts.com> on Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:27:45 -0400
At 06:24 PM 6/26/00 -0400, Geoff Winnington-Ball wrote:
>Pistols New Old, and Hofficers
>
>And speaking of which, it is oft said that the most dangerous being on any
>battlefield is a 2LT with a map... I‘m inclined to agree... I once was one...
And this, of course, opens an another worthwhile thread while we are
slagging our younger selves and identifying the related equipment and
training shortfalls that led us to be sush an endless source of amusement
for our NCOs.
Perhaps that old observation wouldn‘t be so true if we had a standard
navigation package which culminated in something more that "set the
bearing, and follow the needle to the next checkpoint." I am continually
amazed when I compare our present map-using standards and publication to
any earlier renditions from the late 1800s to the 1960s.
It seems that map-using is the ultimate OJT event, with foreseeable
results. And as a rule, it is those officers or NCOs who are required to
use their maps in everyday execution of their duties that eventually learn
the necessary skills to do it well: gunners and mortarmen usually, recce
when they‘re being recce and not just posing with a tank-hunting knife
strapped upsidedown to their web gear, the air observers were damn good at
it but only at 120 kph. Too many others depended on the few naturals in
their midst, content to follow in convoy or to simply follow the well-worn
tracks from "Square Wood" to the "Scotty Dog" beacuse that‘s where the next
objective always is, without concsiously following the contours or reading
the ground.
This is why the RV series was so good for the army‘s small unit comanders
section/TC/detachment to coy/sqn/bty. It put pretty well everyone on new
terrain. And when it was run in Suffield, they old pros didn‘t have the
luxury of just driving from one treeline to the next. As a young mortar
platoon second-in-command on RV 85 doing recce, baseplate preparations, and
leading in the OP parties when necessary, it was where I suddenly realized
I was reading my map, rather than just following the roads and woodlines a
lucky combination of nervous sweat, hard work and damn good NCOs in the
platoon to watch over me. I certainly wasn‘t taught that degree of
map-using in training, and the package hasn‘t changed since then.
mike
Michael O‘Leary
Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm
The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
new ‘permanent‘ address. - MMO
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by "Bruce Williams" <Williabr@uregina.ca> on Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:10:31 -0600
> Perhaps that old observation wouldn‘t be so true if we had a standard
> navigation package which culminated in something more that "set the
> bearing, and follow the needle to the next checkpoint." I am continually
> amazed when I compare our present map-using standards and publication to
> any earlier renditions from the late 1800s to the 1960s.
There is another major threat to the learning of competent map using...the
dreaded GPS. The technology is wonderful but I believe from my reading that
there is a tendency to rely on it totally. I hate to say it but GPS is the
only navigation system in human history where we can‘t guesstimate if we
have to..the old Mark I eyeball just doesn‘t triangulate satellites in orbit
really well. Well I guess thetas not the only thing...tough to locate North
with the sun and a digital watch.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by Juno847627709@aol.com on Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:55:55 EDT
Now, I apologize to all those on the list for just asking question after
question, but I have to know this stuff really soon .
Now, I know a little bit about the C7 \ C7A1, but I have a question
about the C8‘s.- They are just like a smaller version of the C7, but use the
same 30 rd. clip, right?
And secondly, would it be an infantry officer‘s perogative whether to
carry a C7 or a C8?
Once again, sorry for the ignorance,
-Matt
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by Gunner <randr1@home.com> on Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:54:39 -0600
Ahh...fond memories as a recce officer carrying six gun markers, a
radio, webbing and that wonderful FNC1. When you stopped at each gun
platform, you had to literally drop everything, plant the gun marker and
dig into your coat and grab you‘re prismatic compass. Once the gun
marker was on the centre of arc, pick it all up, run 50 metres and
repeat.
WRT the FOO carrying a rifle. I remember our SOP for occupying an OP.
I jump out of my 113, grab my webbing, shooting kit, radio, shovel and
my trusty rifle a trusty C7 by now. Why carry the rifle? The FOOs
job isn‘t to shoot the rifle, it‘s to call in indirect fire in all its
wonderous forms and advise your company commander. No more, no less.
Nope, god forbide an officer should have a pistol...I shake my head at
some of the stupidity we inflict on ourselves. I‘m a firm believer the
officer is there to lead and if he is carrying too much stuff, or,
trying to fight the battle, he can‘t command. Pistols were good enough
for officers in all the major wars and its good enough now.
I‘m not sure what I‘ll make my officers carry when I have my own battery
or regiment...hmm...i got screwed around as a young guy...maybe I‘ll do
it to my junior officers!
Put my 2 cents in for officers carrying a pistol! If you want to carry
a rifle, hand in your commission and become a rifleman no offence
Mike.
Derrick Forsythe wrote:
>
> I disagree - both the FOO and the Recce officer are pretty much useless
> without a rifle - and they don‘t really get in the way
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bruce Williams [SMTP:Williabr@uregina.ca]
> > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 3:14 PM
> > To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > Subject: Re: Pistol Replacement
> >
> > I believe that most infantry platoon commanders should carry a rifle be it
> > a
> > C7 or the trusty old C1A1 I carried. For most other officer jobs a rifle
> > just gets in the way.
> >
> > My personal philosophy was that my pistol was for close in personal
> > protection..hence I carried mine in a shoulder holster...very much more
> > convenient than webbing in a CP. I always believed that if the situation I
> > was in required a rifle there would probably be some available from
> > casualties.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by "Steve Kuervers" <skuervers@hotmail.com> on Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:44:49 PDT
Geoff:
If the scariest thing on the battlefield is an officer with a map and
compass, what about an officer with GPS??
I can say it, I is one.
Steve
Mud Gunner
Locating Gunner one of the few
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.