PERs : All issues questions...2003-2019

[Tow Tripod]

This is the type of forum where everyone gets to bitch. If it wasn't almost comical it would be pathetic. Like I said earlier If you don't like it get the **ck out. Then get right back in because you miss the boys!! Believe me when I tell you that I have seen that alot in the last few years!!

Tow Tripod

 

[LineJumper]

hmmmm, I remember problems with utilizing PAT troops when I was posted to wx. Sadly, I had no idea there were nearly 1000 anywho, I  sadly had the opportunity to discuss with a few of them their release intent due to completing their initial contract while in PAT after completing basic. Terribly sad, many of those young kids had some serious dissallusions about the army yet due to lack of instructor base, they simply could not be processed. Hopefully that fiasco hasn't blackened the eye of IMHO a fine training system, for future recruiting rushes that may take place.

 

[Occam]

This is the type of forum where everyone gets to bitch. If it wasn't almost comical it would be pathetic. Like I said earlier If you don't like it get the **ck out. Then get right back in because you miss the boys!! Believe me when I tell you that I have seen that alot in the last few years!!

Tow Tripod

You can say that all you like, but the number of people re-enrolling has to be relatively low, otherwise we still wouldn't be having trouble maintaining our current numbers, never mind reaching the PML targets.  Mind you, the CDS has directed measures to make it easier for people to come back after a brief journey to civvie street if they wish to do so, so it remains to be seen if the number of re-enrollees becomes statistically significant.

Which leaves us back at the problem of:

"If you don't like it, then get the fuck out".

"Why thank you, don't mind if I do".

 

[deh]

That's an over-simplification.  No doubt applicable in some cases, but the broader issue is the completely unregulated growth of administrative documents and resulting requirements at every command level in the past 10-15 years.  Much of it might have been avoided if a lot of commanders and senior staff had actually been working to create efficient systems rather than measuring staff work product by weight of paper produced.

Lets not restrict that to senior staff.  I am a section second in command and the amount and type of paperwork that comes to me to be filled out is borderline ridiculous.  For our individual soldiers we have, info sheets, pro formas, MPRR print outs, a qualification master list, monitor mass, UER's and the PER/PDR system.  Everytime a soldier completes a course it has to get entered into at least five different documents.  The majority of the information is copy and pasted from other documents, for example the med cat section of the info sheet is directly copied from the MPRR print out that is kept in the same folder.  The UER sheets fill out the qualification list. The performance section of the Pro Forma is a cut and paste of the PDR of the latest ex and so on.  It really is little wonder none of the documents are ever completely up to date.

The only thing all this mountain of paper seems to be used for is jacking up the MCpl's for not filling it in right.  When we need to know who is qualified HLVW Dvr we generally line everyone up and ask, I have yet to see anyone actually look at the documents we generate for anything other than a check of correctness.  Pointless interviews and stupidity always follow the inevitable crackdown that happens when one portion of the document is completed incorrectly.  Never mind that it is edited by the 35 NCO's of a coy, with varying computer skills.  The amount of time I spend fiddle-fucking with this pointless time vampire has to be my biggest source of stress at work. 

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

There seems to be a lot of belly aching and problems brought forward, but not many solutions? Perhaps instead of continuously  filling out mountains of paperwork, someone could take the initiative and find a way to amalgomate the UER, PDRs, Info sheets, etc into one document.  That's how we get around these things and who real leadership. This is one of my biggest pet peeves... when people just bitch about problems and how "out of it leadership is" instead of doing their jobs and making sure leadership is aware of the situation on the floor.  If you're going to say a problem, give the solution! The army now a days does a great deal to accomodate individuals, but leadership can't make these decisions of the lower ranks dont bring their ideas and put in the effort to alleviate the problem

 

[Trooper Hale]

Afternoon sporties is a big one. But on the topic of PT, fun PT sessions are something my unit is renowned for avoiding. Theres only so many times you can run up the hill before it starts getting a little boring (Halfway through the first time for me!). Blokes dont need to be smashed for PT every morning. Playing footy or touch football can change that frustration.
As a young digger, consistancy is something that frustrates us. Theres plenty of new blokes where i am who cant deal with the red tape and the constant chopping and changing. When the SSM comes downstairs friday afternoon to stab someone for a job on the weekend or supporting a course the next week, it shows diggers that even upstairs they dont know whats going on.
At my old unit we had a pile of leave aps which we filled out in pen and handed to our troop corporals. It took 5 minutes. At my current everything has to be written on computer and is almost always red penned and returned to us. But the real kicker? Theres only 1 computer for the troopers and L/Cpls in the building! hilarious. "Hales, why didnt you reply to my email?" says my boss, "cos i cant check my emails Sir", "Well, it was important, go check it now". The bloke works a vertical 5m above me! Just come down and tell me!
In the Aus Army we call it the "AJ Fade away". It usually happens around 1 or 2 on the quite days, suddenly you realise that everyone has just snuck off. And for the most part, no one cares. Until the SSM gets an email telling him, at 1530, that the RSM wants a tent put up so the boys see how it looks. The practice of stabbing blokes to do things so that they're doing something is one reason i know blokes leave.
We work for 5 months of this year as dismounted Cav scouts, "You'll be cav scouts all year lads" says the OC. I get told at the start of last week, along with 30 others, "You blokes are manning vehicles for the 4week ex starting next tuesday, we're not using scouts". I get a weeks notice for a month long ex and get told the job i've been doing all year is irrelevent.
"Hales, why do you have a totenkopf on you helmet? People might find it offensive". I'm out bush! Who cares?
"Have these vehicles been monthly'd this month?" Its the 5th! Its the start of the month. why would they have been?
"How much fuel does this car have?". Let me think, it hasnt moved in 3 months, i reckons its got the same as it had last week and the week before and the week before! Quick, i better write down that it has 250lt deso, nil 25mm, nil 7.62mm, nil 5.56mm, nil rations, nil interest in all the bullshit!
Like my old troop corporal used to say, "When in doubt, hit something, it wont fix anything, but it'll make you feel better"

 

[deh]

There seems to be a lot of belly aching and problems brought forward, but not many solutions? Perhaps instead of continuously  filling out mountains of paperwork, someone could take the initiative and find a way to amalgomate the UER, PDRs, Info sheets, etc into one document.  That's how we get around these things and who real leadership. This is one of my biggest pet peeves... when people just bitch about problems and how "out of it leadership is" instead of doing their jobs and making sure leadership is aware of the situation on the floor.  If you're going to say a problem, give the solution! The army now a days does a great deal to accomodate individuals, but leadership can't make these decisions of the lower ranks dont bring their ideas and put in the effort to alleviate the problem

The problem is we are duplicating the UER, MPRR and PDR systems with reams of useless junk.  We have put forward to use the documents we are nationally mandated to use and got shot down.  Thanks tips for letting us know we should find a solution to the problem though.  That was helpful.

You think that I as a sect 2 I/C could come up with a new system that supercedes or amalgamates the nationally mandated, forces' wide system that is in place kind of tells me you don't understand what any of those things are.

Maybe one day when I learn your method of how to "get around these things and who real leadership" I will understand.  Until then I will just continue to just "say a problem".

Army.ca I am on strike.  I will never post again until there is some sort of literacy test that goes along with membership and the ability to post.  Spell check should be mandatory when you hit the post button as well.  Spelling and grammar errors in bold, for shits and giggles.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Don't you have some rocks to paint  ;D

 

[Trooper Hale]

Don't you have some rocks to paint ;D

Haha, thanks for that. You've just broken my bad mood.
To quote my SQ, "What are you blokes doing painting that door? Dont waste that blue paint! We might need it for something"
Sarge, what are you going to need bright blue paint for? I bloody hope its not for the vehicles...

 

[armyvern]

Interesting,

Where do you work?

dileas

tess

He could be working here --- unbeknownst to me!!  8)

If all of you 'without enough work' want to come here and give us a hand ... I'll take you; and, I'll treat you good, but please don't bitch when I've got to have you in on weekends and evenings too. It happens a lot around here. But, like I said, I will treat you well - I don't "make work" for people - I HAVE work for people ... and I'll back you up totally if you can give me a common sense reason as to why "you did what you did" or "why you did it this way".

As someone already stated --- it's all dependant upon your Unit. Anybody wishes to infer it's all "sitting around everywhere" and is "happening without our seeing it" ... guess again. Some of us in some locations could gainfully employ shitloads more people. That's what happens in Pri 6 Units at 70% manning and purple.

And guess what my troops bitch about? The fact that the Cpls accross the street at that big 1st line Pri 2 Unit are going home early every day yet collect the same Taxpayer of Canada paycheck and seeing that occur is bad for MY troops' morale ... while we struggle to keep our heads above water.

Point is: No matter where you are, what trade, or what Unit --- the troops and their staff will ALWAYS bitch about the grass being greener. That's the nature of this beast.

 

[GAP]

And guess what my troops bitch about? The fact that the Cpls accross the street at that big 1st line Pri 2 Unit are going home early every day yet collect the same Taxpayer of Canada paycheck and seeing that occur is bad for MY troops' morale ... while we struggle to keep our heads above water.

Now wouldn't it be ever so efficient if CO's, et al put their scriptures and egos in their back pockets, and simply pointed out to those Cpls across the street that if there is nothing  for them to constructively do, go help out across the street...I'm sure there is some basic work that would free up your people to do something else.....

 

[Another Mom]

Yossarian is alive and well.

 

[Michael OLeary]

There seems to be a lot of belly aching and problems brought forward, but not many solutions?

Let me describe one example of the system's entrenched failure to identify and adopt user-generated solutions.

At the Army's Staff College (CLFCSC, Kingston), successive generations of students have developed staff tools to reduce the sheer labour requirements of staff planning tasks.  Some of these tools were robust enough to survive for years, but only through being passed from student to student.  Some improved over time as they came into the hands of new student innovators who tweaked and polished them to meet new requirements or simply to improve efficiency.  Some of these electronic tools would cease to be further developed only through conflicts with operating system upgrades (a particular weakness for MS Access utilities).

Despite this, there has never been a system in place at the Staff College to identify useful staff tools developed by the student body, and to formally adopt the best of these.  The Staff College offered a closed environment with stable test conditions against which improvements could be tested and measured.  Something as a simple as building a library of student developed tools, that could be taken away as desired, would have capitalized on the effort made by a few for the benefit of their peers on their courses and later courses.

If this had been done effectively, it may have also contributed to a better data-handling baseline of knowledge for the ongoing development of tactical planning computer systems. However, in a closed environment, with 12 LCols closely monitoring the activities of 72 students, we still couldn't identify and capture the worthwhile efforts of the few who developed solutions.

At a time when the College was repeatedly praising a LCol for developing MS Word staff formats, it was ignoring the work of students with MS Access, web development and other initiatives that were creating significant task time savings in more than a few instances.

 

[Dog]

And guess what my troops bitch about? The fact that the Cpls accross the street at that big 1st line Pri 2 Unit are going home early every day yet collect the same Taxpayer of Canada paycheck and seeing that occur is bad for MY troops' morale ... while we struggle to keep our heads above water.

Point is: No matter where you are, what trade, or what Unit --- the troops and their staff will ALWAYS bitch about the grass being greener. That's the nature of this beast.

That's comparing apples to oranges, and you damn well know it.

"That's the nature of the beast" I'm so sick of hearing that as a cop-out excuse. It's the phrase people use when the can't explain why something doesn't make sense.

 

[Michael OLeary]

"That's the nature of the beast" I'm so sick of hearing that as a cop-out excuse. It's the phrase people use when the can't explain why something doesn't make sense.

And that's the sort of comment that comes from those who have never dealt with formation or base level resource planning and management, unit budgets, or the many requirements to plan for and execute all of the "army stuff" things they would like to do every day.  Yet, even when they see their own unit robbed of NCOs and officers for the Army summer tasking cycle, they still expect all of their own administration support done in a timely manner and they want to be kept busy doing things that take more staff and resources than the unit has.

The core of the problem is not a lack of individual capability or desire among unit or even formation staffs.  And, despite what any Corporal, Sergeant or Captain desires at the unit level, there are no simple solutions.

 

[Long in the tooth]

Family is indeed one of the major reasons for my release after 25+ years.  When deployed overseas or on real ops there was no problem.  Too many of my kids birthdays I've missed for no good reasons.  As both my parents and in laws were getting older I pleaded for a posting nearer them.  Being reimbursed (taxable) a trip home doesn't go far when you need to buy five flights to go for a funeral.
Now, I read over the article and some of the predictable comments in The Star.  I don't think that military members have a problem with civilian oversight - in fact it's critical.  I personally do have a big problem with the integration of CR3 s and the like.  Most of the civvies I work with are great, but I've been known to say "if you want a rank/title put on a uniform."

 

[armyvern]

That's comparing apples to oranges, and you damn well know it.

"That's the nature of the beast" I'm so sick of hearing that as a cop-out excuse. It's the phrase people use when the can't explain why something doesn't make sense.

Really, it is the same paycheque is it not?

I'm sick of hearing bitching and whining about "not having work", yet I offer some up ... and they are quick to STFU or toss it back as "that's different" or "that's a cop out" --- you want work or don't you? I've got some; you don't want it, then don't whine because you don't have any. Get it?

 

[chris_log]

He could be working here --- unbeknownst to me!!  8)

If all of you 'without enough work' want to come here and give us a hand ... I'll take you; and, I'll treat you good, but please don't ***** when I've got to have you in on weekends and evenings too. It happens a lot around here. But, like I said, I will treat you well - I don't "make work" for people - I HAVE work for people ... and I'll back you up totally if you can give me a common sense reason as to why "you did what you did" or "why you did it this way".

As someone already stated --- it's all dependant upon your Unit. Anybody wishes to infer it's all "sitting around everywhere" and is "happening without our seeing it" ... guess again. Some of us in some locations could gainfully employ shitloads more people. That's what happens in Pri 6 Units at 70% manning and purple.

And guess what my troops ***** about? The fact that the Cpls accross the street at that big 1st line Pri 2 Unit are going home early every day yet collect the same Taxpayer of Canada paycheck and seeing that occur is bad for MY troops' morale ... while we struggle to keep our heads above water.

Point is: No matter where you are, what trade, or what Unit --- the troops and their staff will ALWAYS ***** about the grass being greener. That's the nature of this beast.

Not with you I'm afraid, although through the grapevine I hear you folks (if you are where I think you are) are overworked to the breaking point.

Thanks for making the point I was trying to make. Maybe those who are long retired and don't know the situation on the ground RIGHT NOW will get the point from you, as they obviously decided to redicule mine.

If people are sitting around twiddling their thumbs, there exists a leadership failure from the CO down. There is no reason why troops should not be gainfully employed (trg resource limitations or not).

 

[the 48th regulator]

Thanks for making the point I was trying to make. Maybe those who are long retired and don't know the situation on the ground RIGHT NOW will get the point from you, as they obviously decided to redicule mine.

And maybe you should reign in your sanctimonious neck in, as some of us retired folks still work within the system.

You can cast your line all you want, we all have seen the trolling that you once again have shown you are only good for.

AS you stated, and I echo your post, you have yet to tell us what unit you work for.

dileas

tess

 

[Dog]

Really, it is the same paycheque is it not?

I'm sick of hearing bitching and whining about "not having work", yet I offer some up ... and they are quick to STFU or toss it back as "that's different" or "that's a cop out" --- you want work or don't you? I've got some; you don't want it, then don't whine because you don't have any. Get it?

Whose talking about the paycheque? I'm not debating that, but you're saying being a combat engineer is the same as being a supply tech is ignorant.

This isn't a question of wanting work, so much as it's wanting to do something, anything related to my trade. This goes for everyone in every trade.
I didn't sign up to be a supply tech, so no, I'm not going to go count triwalls of stuff at the local Clothing Stores. Just like I don't ask supply techs to come dig the footings of an NSB in the pouring rain. It's not what you signed up to do, so I wouldn't expect you to want/know/care/be qualified to do it.

As for being sick of hearing "it's the nature of the beast" I hear it everyday... as I'm sitting around doing nothing on days when I could be going home early, if they aren't going to train me. I'll be earning that time back when I'm rolling around in afghanistan waiting to be blown up.

If it's truly "the nature of the beast" then, getting back to the original point of the thread, the nature of the beast needs to be changed somehow... because the facts are that retention is a serious problem. Just because some of you are satisfied with the status quo, doesn't mean things are ok. They aren't, and when we no longer have a serious mission to train for, there's going to be an exodus of troops.