Out-of-shape soldiers a 'national threat'

[Edward Campbell]

I'm with dapaterson on this one:

    1. First, make what is mandatory, now, work ~ everyone from the CDS through the tubby colonel on the staff down to the driver in the hanger passes the current authorized test once or twice a year,
        whatever the regulations say, or (s)he goes on supervised, mandatory remedial PT until (s)he can pass it. And make those remedial PT periods the same as mandatory medical appointments - things with very
        serious career consequences;

    2. Develop additional standards for selected occupations that are, clearly and demonstrably, related to operational requirements and impose those on members of those military occupations and, same as
        above, those who cannot pass do remedial, supervised PT until they can pass; but

    3. There are a couple of flies in the ointment:

          a. Unit level leadership must be actively involved, and it may have to be forced to be actively involved - one adverse PER for failing to lead, and adequate publicity about it, ought to be enough, "pour
              encourager les autres," and

          b. There needs to be command support to make sure PT is done ~ and that may, likely will, require resources which are not always there now: gyms and PTIs* come to mind.


_____
* One of the reasons I was able to have a pretty good unit PT programme over 30 years ago is that we were established with three PTIs: 1 X Sgt and 2 X Cpls. How many do units have now?

 

[McG]

None.  At best, it is a secondary duty.

 

[Infanteer]

* One of the reasons I was able to have a pretty good unit PT programme over 30 years ago is that we were established with three PTIs: 1 X Sgt and 2 X Cpls. How many do units have now?

None.  PTIs no longer exist and PSP Staff work at the base gym.  To be fair, our base PSP pers are proactive and have offered to come down to the unit lines during PT times.

 

[Old EO Tech]

How was I unclear?  Moderate at their job superfit gym monkeys got promoted, while hard working technically proficient but physically moderate troops got overlooked.  I spent 23 years on the floor, I know it happened.  If you award extra points for super fitness, you make that an official policy, instead of the old underhanded way it was done.  Troops will inevitably start worrying more about the gym than the shop floor.

I agree completely.  A Minimum fitness level is required for operational effectiveness, I think we all agree on that.  But linking fitness to promotions/career progression past the pass/fail, would be a mistake.  Not only would this further skew our PER system, there are those of us in the CSS world that can't do PT 5 times a week(or more) all the time because we have support dependancies that are critical to supporting our combat units.  So there are times that to support an upcoming Ex or course, we have to cut back on PT, and this is authorized by the CO.  This in no way effects our ability to pass the fitness standard being the BFT or FORCE, but if you put a sliding PT points scale on the PER system, you would be punishing CSS pers for doing their job to make their units operational.

As others have stated the solution, IMHO, is to simply aggressively enforce the existing system, once you fail to pass the PT standard.  Now the Medical-Admin system has been abused constantly as a block to get rid of people that there only medical condition is being out of shape :-/  And I state this being a 46 year old MWO with worn out knees, and a somewhat higher BMI than 26 years ago :-/  But I was seemingly effective physically as well doing my job for 3 months this spring on Ex in WX :-/

Yes we do need a higher level of overall fitness in the CF across the board, but we have to be careful how we encourage that change.  Maybe taking away environmental allowances when you fail the PT test would encourage people in operational units to stay fit.  If you can't pass the basic PT test you obviously can not deploy :-/

 

[The_Falcon]

A good start would also include reintroducing a PT for ALL personnel  immediately after writing their CFAT.  And then strictly adhering to a policy that says no further processing until the PT test is passed.  During my short time at CFRC Toronto, I saw that the second part is actually written that way in the recruiting handbook, but the CofC refused to adhere to that.  The basic attitude was they were all going to reserve units anyways so who cares if it takes them three (or more attempts) to pass the PT test by the skin of their teeth, and then subsequently showing up on course sometimes months later still out of shape (being a reservist, and having seen the effects of this I cared immensely). 

The 2 i/c of the Det didn't like it either, and when the Det CO went on his 30 day break over the summer, I planted the idea that one way to deal with our gigantic backlog of co-op applicants, was to actually enforce the recruiting directives, and halt processing files for PT failures.  He agreed, and it was happy days for at least a short while.

 

[Infanteer]

I agree completely.  A Minimum fitness level is required for operational effectiveness, I think we all agree on that.  But linking fitness to promotions/career progression past the pass/fail, would be a mistake.  Not only would this further skew our PER system, there are those of us in the CSS world that can't do PT 5 times a week(or more) all the time because we have support dependancies that are critical to supporting our combat units.  So there are times that to support an upcoming Ex or course, we have to cut back on PT, and this is authorized by the CO.  This in no way effects our ability to pass the fitness standard being the BFT or FORCE, but if you put a sliding PT points scale on the PER system, you would be punishing CSS pers for doing their job to make their units operational.

I call BS on this and it's a perfect example of the lack of fitness culture in our military - the ability to find any reason to put PT off.  I have many things to do during the ordinary PT time and am one of the busiest people in a front line unit.  What options do I have?  I come in at 0630 and do PT or I do it before going home for dinner.  When I was working with the USMC, the Marines were up, in formation, doing PT at 0600. 

It seems culturally ingrained that PT can only be done during the 0730-1000 block, and if its 0959, then it ain't getting done.  Flexible schedules and coming in before or after working those "support dependencies" are completely viable COAs.

If we keep finding excuses (and I've seen a lot here) then the yard stick just remains where it is.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I call BS on this and it's a perfect example of the lack of fitness culture in our military.  I have many things to do during the ordinary PT time and am probably the busiest person in a front line unit.  What options do I have?  I come in at 0630 and do PT or I do it before going home to dinner.  When I was working with the USMC, the Marines were up, in formation, doing PT at 0600.

It seems culturally ingrained that if it isn't during the 0730-1000 block, then it ain't PT time and you just can't get it done.  Flexible schedules and coming in before or after working those "support dependencies" are completely viable COAs.

If we keep finding excuses (and I've seen a lot here) then the yard stick just remains where it is.

Plus how many times do we cut guys loose at the units early and when was the last time I saw a unit work until 1630 in garrison?  Completely agree with this statement and the lack of a fitness culture.

 

[Jarnhamar]

How can we as a military push  a fitness culture when our recruits are exposed to warrior platoon and we constantly see service members fucking the  medical system with no ramifications.

Terry fox run? Lol good luck with that suckers my 'bad knee' is acting up I'm going to the mir.

 

[MJP]

I agree completely.  A Minimum fitness level is required for operational effectiveness, I think we all agree on that.  But linking fitness to promotions/career progression past the pass/fail, would be a mistake.  Not only would this further skew our PER system, there are those of us in the CSS world that can't do PT 5 times a week(or more) all the time because we have support dependancies that are critical to supporting our combat units.  So there are times that to support an upcoming Ex or course, we have to cut back on PT, and this is authorized by the CO.  This in no way effects our ability to pass the fitness standard being the BFT or FORCE, but if you put a sliding PT points scale on the PER system, you would be punishing CSS pers for doing their job to make their units operational.

We are in the same unit albeit different Coys and disagree with you that PT needs to be cut back IOT to conduct our support dependencies.  The key mantra we keep repeating is that the tasks will always be there at the end of the day if we start them at 0730 or at 0900.  When I arrived last year as a Coy PT was sporadic at best.  Some command direction (and I firmly believe command buy in is the key) too the Pl leadership quickly saw it change to the entire Coy doing PT everyday.  Sections that need to be open early by Military members still opened on time but those pers that came in early did PT later in the day.  There are exceptions but they are rare.  It certainly takes some more planning than from what I can remember of my Cbt Arms das but it is doable.

 

[Infanteer]

How was I unclear?  Moderate at their job superfit gym monkeys got promoted, while hard working technically proficient but physically moderate troops got overlooked.  I spent 23 years on the floor, I know it happened.  If you award extra points for super fitness, you make that an official policy, instead of the old underhanded way it was done.  Troops will inevitably start worrying more about the gym than the shop floor.

You make it seem like one is either fit or competent.

 

[Kat Stevens]

No, I'm not, but thanks for the assumption, I just know what I lived.  I saw it, I was there.  Hockey players who refused leadership training occupying top spots on unit merit boards was another not unusual occurrence.  There were plenty of very fit, very competent guys who got promoted, and I never had a problem with them being rewarded for hard work.

 

[Infanteer]

There were plenty of very fit, very competent guys who got promoted, and I never had a problem with them being rewarded for hard work.

That's what we are talking about here - rewarding people for hard work.  A scale between 1-5 points for good physical fitness on the merit board goes quite well with the scale of 75-80 points that performance and potential get you.

 

[Kat Stevens]

That's what we are talking about here - rewarding people for hard work.  A scale between 1-5 points for good physical fitness on the merit board goes quite well with the scale of 75-80 points that performance and potential get you.

As I've said repeatedly, I'm too long out of the game, all I can share is what I know and saw personally.  On that note, I guess I'll bow out of this one.

 

[old fart]

A few of the recently returned R2 pers have told me that Fat Canadian jokes were popular amongst our coalition partners.

Nothing new there...during the Bosnian years...we were known as CAN FAT BAT....

Bas_terds... :warstory:

 

[Armymedic]

The new fitness standard, and how it relates to PER is sufficent for the requirements of the CAF.

If the force generating formations or the occupations themselves, feel they require a more stringent standard then they should feel free to implement them.

If troops do not wish to maintain a healthy lifestyle, they will pay in thier own price in the end.

 

[Old EO Tech]

We are in the same unit albeit different Coys and disagree with you that PT needs to be cut back IOT to conduct our support dependencies.  The key mantra we keep repeating is that the tasks will always be there at the end of the day if we start them at 0730 or at 0900.  When I arrived last year as a Coy PT was sporadic at best.  Some command direction (and I firmly believe command buy in is the key) too the Pl leadership quickly saw it change to the entire Coy doing PT everyday.  Sections that need to be open early by Military members still opened on time but those pers that came in early did PT later in the day.  There are exceptions but they are rare.  It certainly takes some more planning than from what I can remember of my Cbt Arms das but it is doable.

MJP, your profile says you are at Svc Bn, if that is still true we are no longer at the same unit, I left in April for 1 VP and that is wear my opinion is based on.  And not to side track this thread to much, but Svc Bn would be well served if they put "production", what ever service that maybe for you, ahead of everything else.  Svc Bn has had a well deserved reputation in 1 CMBG at least(for the past 25 years), for not supporting the Bde because they are to busy doing everything else(including PT 4/5 days a week).  I think at least in some parts of Svc Bn this is starting to change after 3 different Comd teams running FSG's this spring, and seeing that support to the Bde is Svc Bn primary role, not it's secondary role :-/

My task is to keep 55 LAV's and 100-ish B Vehicles operational, and sometimes I do need to limit PT and even going on non career courses, and nice to do taskings, in order to accomplish this.  This is the reality in a high readiness Inf BG.  And in the end my troops all can still pass the BFT with no issues, we may not set any records, but we meet the standard, and most importantly we can more than meet the physical and mental demands of operations, which in the end is why we promote PT and have these standards.

Jon

 

[Old EO Tech]

Plus how many times do we cut guys loose at the units early and when was the last time I saw a unit work until 1630 in garrison?  Completely agree with this statement and the lack of a fitness culture.

That may happen were you work, but no one in my Pl leaves early without a good reason.  Yes the Rifle Coys might be able to do that, but few in Adm Coy at my unit ever have that luxury.

Jon

 

[Old EO Tech]

I call BS on this and it's a perfect example of the lack of fitness culture in our military - the ability to find any reason to put PT off.  I have many things to do during the ordinary PT time and am one of the busiest people in a front line unit.  What options do I have?  I come in at 0630 and do PT or I do it before going home for dinner.  When I was working with the USMC, the Marines were up, in formation, doing PT at 0600. 

It seems culturally ingrained that PT can only be done during the 0730-1000 block, and if its 0959, then it ain't getting done.  Flexible schedules and coming in before or after working those "support dependencies" are completely viable COAs.

If we keep finding excuses (and I've seen a lot here) then the yard stick just remains where it is.

Sure I could have my Pl come in at 0600 and then slave away all day at there jobs, as the work still has to get done.  But I already have to manage moral after an entire spring basically whipping them to keep an aging fleet operational, were do you think moral would be if I made their days an hour and a half longer?

I am not advocating not doing PT, or lowering the standard.  I'm saying that sometimes there are legitimate reasons why it is not practical to do PT 5 days a week.  And this does not weaken the Bn's institutional support for PT, it's a reality of personnel and resource management.  And as I was stating it is a reason why we should not further incorporate fitness into the CFPAS more than as it is now as a P/F.

Jon 

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Sure I could have my Pl come in at 0600 and then slave away all day at there jobs, as the work still has to get done.  But I already have to manage moral after an entire spring basically whipping them to keep an aging fleet operational, were do you think moral would be if I made their days an hour and a half longer?

I am not advocating not doing PT, or lowering the standard.  I'm saying that sometimes there are legitimate reasons why it is not practical to do PT 5 days a week.  And this does not weaken the Bn's institutional support for PT, it's a reality of personnel and resource management.  And as I was stating it is a reason why we should not further incorporate fitness into the CFPAS more than as it is now as a P/F.

Jon

I think what Infanteer was trying to say was fitness shouldn't be a suggestion, it should be an expectation.  If you have too much work to do during the day then find some time before or after work to get it done but not doing PT because you have "too much work to do" simply doesn't cut it.  We always tell soldiers that the minimum standard is there but they should be trying to achieve more yet when push comes to shove we are all so accepting of mediocrity.  By linking fitness to CFPAS you are giving people an incentive to want to be fit and this to me seems like a logical method to making people get serious about fitness.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over ad expecting different results.  We seem to be doing this an awful lot with our fitness in the CF.  I wonder if this is due to us not wanting to admit that we have a substantial portion of our organization that is overweight and out of shape?  Every time I walk around the NCR and I see some CF member walking around in size XXXXL combats I die a little on the inside.  It tarnishes the uniform and degrades our image as a professional military force. 

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'm not sure how things are today, but waaay back when a CO's performance was 'measured' against many things.

If one's unit finished very high or very low on the fitness matrix that fact might make it on to a PER. If, on the other hand, one's unit got anything less than fully satisfactory mark on the annual MTI (Mechanical (including weapons), Telecommunications and Instruments) inspection it would appear on the CO's PER. I can recall, as a NCO, junior officer, sub-unit OC and CO, the efforts we made to "pass" the MTI. My recollection of the efforts we put into fitness and sports, including tests, is that it was substantially less.

If that's still the case then I have no doubt that the troops, especially the supervisory NCOs, understand and weigh their priorities accordingly.