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OCdt Relinquishing Rank

Flanker6

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This may be in the wrong forum and if so I will happily move to the appropriate forum, but I thought this would be a safe bet considering it isn't a CT or OT.

I am in the 3rd year of the ROTP program, having my education subsidized. I have completed phases 1 and 2 and been in the upper echelon when considering competency during courses.

In November I was told that my degree of study (BSc - General Studies) was unacceptable for my MOSID (arty) (to boil my blood a bit, some of the courses that would have been acceptable were Poli Sci, Sociology, Criminology, Basket Weaving, etc). I was made aware of this because someone had drafted an arbitrary list, dictating what degrees were acceptable for each trade. I was also told that BSC-GS wasn't listed as an acceptable degree for ANY trade. I'm thinking that someone merely did not make an inclusive list - as my degree wasn't on the scale at all (1-unacceptable, 2-acceptable, 3-preferred). At that point I was given a set of choices:

1 - Release from the CF without financial commitment or obligatory service.
2 - Remain an OCdt and serve my oblig. service that I incurred during my period of subsidy (2mths service/1mth subsidy)
3 - Relinquish rank and serve as an NCM.
4 - Change degree of study to something accepted for my trade or otherwise, but even using credits I've obtained toward something like Chem or Phys I would be looking at a MIN of 2.5 yrs school.

I chose #3, simply because I do not want to incur further service and I don't want to release. It is now nearing APRIL and I am yet to hear anything (I've turned in my memo[DEC], my COC is aware of my intentions). I have BMOQ and BMOQ(L) (formerly CAP) - which is the equivalent of PLQ from what I'm told.

I understand an OCdt doesn't warrant a whole ton of attention, but are they trying to hold out until my courses are no longer valid and need to be repeated, or possibly just waiting until I release?

Any insight would be helpful. Thank you!

[edit] I should have added that in the mean time I am working at a Res Unit working full time (EWAT) to avoid being AWOL.
 
I am somewhat confused.  Not by your details, but by the asserion that a BSc - General is unaceptable for the artillery.  A review of CFAO 9-12 (ROTP) shows that as being eacceptable - the CFAO uses a 4 point scale from 1 (preferred) through 4 (Not Subsidized); the scan of the table shows either a 1 or 2 at the intersection of Arty and Science - General.

When you were told your program was unacceptable, was there a reference given that lists the acceptable programs of study?
 
Thanks for the reply dapaterson,
I was told in mid-November by my ULO that I had to make a decision because my degree wasn't kosher with his office. No reference was given but my ULO is a seasoned Capt that has always been very open and forward and downright helpful through my ~3 years with him.
[edit] damn typo.
 
Flanker6 said:
Thanks for the replay dapaterson,
I was told in mid-November by my ULO that I had to make a decision because my degree wasn't kosher with his office. No reference was given but my ULO is a seasoned Capt that has always been very open and forward and downright helpful through my ~3 years with him.

I would approach the ULO and ask for the reference, since your progam of study is listed as acceptable under CFAO 9-12.  It would not be the first time that policies contradicted each other.
 
Flanker6 said:
Thanks for the reply dapaterson,
I was told in mid-November by my ULO that I had to make a decision because my degree wasn't kosher with his office. No reference was given but my ULO is a seasoned Capt that has always been very open and forward and downright helpful through my ~3 years with him.
[edit] damn typo.

In addition to what Dapa has added I am concerned that it came from your ULO.  Anything regarding your education comes from your SEM including go/nogo decisions for continued funding.  The info might flow through your ULO but they don't make decisions of that magnitude regardless of their experience.
 
I really hope the ULO has something wrong. If it's true...what were they thinking when they accepted you? The CF approved YOU for the entry plan. It's not like you were sneaking behind their back.

If it's a requirement that's recently changed, I don't see why they couldn't grandfather those currently in the system like you. Someone please tell me there is a misunderstanding here...
 
I agree. Why the F would they let this go for 3 years without some indication that it was at issue.

And how would a general BSc not be applicable for an Arty O?

Someone needs to give their head a shake. :facepalm:
 
I agree with the general sentiment here fellas, and I will shoot an email out to my ULO when I return to work on Monday. I think I may be more comfortable leading troops at a smaller scale (Sect-level), and because of this I don't think I was as critical of the sodomy I had been victim of at the hands of the CF. Thanks for the insight all of you that have replied and I will update this when/if I hear back from my ULO.
 
Flanker6 said:
I think I may be more comfortable leading troops at a smaller scale (Sect-level),

Recognize that notwithstanding any equivalency that might exist between CAP / PLQ (I don't know how it carries across in reverse), it would be some years before you found yourself promoted through the NCM stream to command a section/det...
 
Brihard said:
Recognize that notwithstanding any equivalency that might exist between CAP / PLQ (I don't know how it carries across in reverse), it would be some years before you found yourself promoted through the NCM stream to command a section/det...
I am more than aware of the time frame I would be looking at before I was even 2IC of a sect, but that is where I would like to end up. I apologize if there were any perceived feelings of entitlement.
 
Flanker6 said:
I am more than aware of the time frame I would be looking at before I was even 2IC of a sect, but that is where I would like to end up. I apologize if there were any perceived feelings of entitlement.

Nope, that didn't come across- no worries there. So long as you're aware of how very different coming up in the ranks is.
 
Your degree is not acceptable for Artillery but acceptable for the following trades from the 'Officer Degree - Entry Standards Summary' matrix I am staring at:

Ideal (1) - Armoured, Infantry Pilot,
Acceptable (2) - Engineer, EME, Intelligence, Sigs
Any Acceptable Degree (3) - AEC, MARS, ACSO, LOG
Exceptional Basis Red Occ  (4) - MP

My reccomendation would be to change trade to fit your degree or do more school.  Your at a civilian university (RMC does not offer 3 yr gen degrees to ROTP's) so believe me you have having a good go compared to RMC cadets.

Activating redress might be in order to help get the trade change you want. 

Going NCM might seem like a quick out that allows you to have a good career, but you are severly limiting your earning potential considering you have already been accpeeted as an officer.  Just look at the pay tables and forecast when you will hit Captain (pretty quick) or Warrant Offiicer (13-20 years).  It was one of the main reasons as a NCM I went Officer.
 
bkotj:  What matrix are you looking at?  The CFAO (still in force) lists the degree as acceptable in its matrix, so it seems that two parts of NDHQ aren't talking to each other.
 
bkotj said:
but you are severly limiting your earning potential considering you have already been accpeeted as an officer. 

Some people do work for reasons other than money.
 
Just want to follow this very peculiar situation...

To the OP, I would definitely be asking for more from the ULO, as mentioned, this should have came from your SEM.
 
Allow me to use some experience to weigh in on this one.  Being a Gunner Officer and all.  3 of my friends (all gunners) have various science like degrees, and are all Gunners like I said. One in fact is a Math guy, another is BSc (agricultural sciences) we also have English majors, and History types.  I am sensing something foul is afoot,  that or the two towers are having a marital spat again.
 
Poking through the DPGR intranet site, I foun the following lists of programs of study for Artillery - Reg F.


Ideal:

Bachelor of Engineering: Engineering and Management

Bachelor of Science: Geomatic/Surveying and Imagery

Bachelor of Arts: International Studies, Languages,
Military and Strategic Studies


Acceptable:

Bachelor of Engineering:
Aeronautical,
Aerospace,
Chemical,
Civil,
Computer,
Electrical,
Engineering Physics, Environmental,
Geological,
Industrial,
Management,
Materials,
Mechanical,
Metallurgical,
Nuclear,
Physical,
Software,
Systems

Bachelor Science:
Applied Sciences, Biochemistry,
Biology,
Chemistry,
Computer,
Earth Observational, Environmental,
Geography,
Geology,
Information Systems, Information Technology, Math and Physics, Math/Applied Math, Physics,
Space Sciences

Bachelor of Arts:
Accounting,
Administration,
Anthropology,
Applied Military Psychology,
Asian Studies,
Business Administration, Canadian Studies, Commerce,
Conflict Studies,
Criminal Justice, Criminology,
East Asiatic Studies, Emergency/Crisis and Disaster Management,  Economics,
Education,
English,
Finance,
French,
Human Resources Management,
History,
Industrial Relations,
Justice Sciences, Journalism,
Law,
Police Sciences,
Political Science, Psychology,
Public Administration,  Sociology

 
dapaterson said:
Poking through the DPGR intranet site, I foun the following lists of programs of study for Artillery - Reg F.


Ideal:

Bachelor of Engineering: Engineering and Management

Bachelor of Science: Geomatic/Surveying and Imagery

Bachelor of Arts: International Studies, Languages,
Military and Strategic Studies


Acceptable:

Bachelor of Engineering:
Aeronautical,
Aerospace,
Chemical,
Civil,
Computer,
Electrical,
Engineering Physics, Environmental,
Geological,
Industrial,
Management,
Materials,
Mechanical,
Metallurgical,
Nuclear,
Physical,
Software,
Systems

Bachelor Science:
Applied Sciences, Biochemistry,
Biology,
Chemistry,
Computer,
Earth Observational, Environmental,
Geography,
Geology,
Information Systems, Information Technology, Math and Physics, Math/Applied Math, Physics,
Space Sciences

Bachelor of Arts:
Accounting,
Administration,
Anthropology,
Applied Military Psychology,
Asian Studies,
Business Administration, Canadian Studies, Commerce,
Conflict Studies,
Criminal Justice, Criminology,
East Asiatic Studies, Emergency/Crisis and Disaster Management,  Economics,
Education,
English,
Finance,
French,
Human Resources Management,
History,
Industrial Relations,
Justice Sciences, Journalism,
Law,
Police Sciences,
Political Science, Psychology,
Public Administration,  Sociology

Somehow I get the feeling that someone is just looking at this list waaaay too literally. When you consider that Artillery/Infantry/Armour Officer are said to accept "any" Bachelor's degree, but you look at that list which is *extremely* short considering the number of degree programs available in Canada... it seems to me that someone either tried to make a list including every single degree program and failed at including them all by a long shot...

I mean if you want to get really literal, going by that list, anybody with a Bachelor's of Business Administration in any form isn't accepted. Sorry, but pretty much only at RMC is it "BA (Business Administration)" and it's quite a different from from "BBA (insert general or concentration here)." And it's laughable to consider Accounting an art, it's as black and white as mathematics.

EDIT: Also, I think if they had meant to change it from "any degree" to these specific ones... they would have definitely grandfathered it. But it's true about common sense not being all that common...
 
As someone who may well be in a place to hear artillery overhead, I'd much rather see Arty officers with a science background (ie they can do math) than a language background (ie they can tell me all about Tennyson's poetry but that whole "carry the one" thing gets them confused).
 
In order for it to be acceptable to enter Combat Arms with an English degree you need to specialize in Kipling. ;D
 
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