Military bases struggling with personnel shortages, internal review finds

Jarnhamar

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Canadian Forces progressively sound like our leaders download buzz word generators to see who can compete for the most corporate sounding business executives as possible.

You don't need a 7 page set of orders complete with commanders vision, intent and scheme of manouver to finish work at lunch, change, and head to the legion for an afternoon of briefs.
 

Mediman14

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Canadian Forces progressively sound like our leaders download buzz word generators to see who can compete for the most corporate sounding business executives as possible.

You don't need a 7 page set of orders complete with commanders vision, intent and scheme of manouver to finish work at lunch, change, and head to the legion for an afternoon of briefs.
I have to agree with you. What ever happen to keeping thing simple?? Your comment on "Canadian Forces progressively sound like our leaders download buzz word generators to see who can compete for the most corporate sounding business executives as possible" pretty much sounds looking after themselves! Like it is a competition who could out word each other to get recognize better than the next. All talk no action. Sounds like an government official or Snr Brass.
 

TCM621

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Canadian Forces progressively sound like our leaders download buzz word generators to see who can compete for the most corporate sounding business executives as possible.

You don't need a 7 page set of orders complete with commanders vision, intent and scheme of manouver to finish work at lunch, change, and head to the legion for an afternoon of briefs.
You forgot GBA+.
 

TCM621

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We are really not in the war business at all, not even sure what business we are in! However the CAF is heading (if not already) in a really big mess. IMO, it starts with Leadership and the lack accountability that follows . When was the last time someone heard Snr Leadership admit to a mistake? I personally don’t recall hearing any! Even if there was any mistakes, it gets swept away.
The CAF needs a major overhaul, it’s documentation and orders ( CANFORGEN and any orders) needs to be revamped. That is tall task. The CAF needs a open minded approach to change things. Those who are not open minded, should be out of the decision making process all together.
The last person to push change thru was Hillier and it actually ended up making things worse. He only managed to get half way thru before he retired and then they tried to revert back to the old way while still keeping the new commands. It slowed things down rather than making us more agile which was his intent.

Then Leslie did up his huge analysis and it contained a lot of good recommendations. Then he retired and everyone ignored it. Imagine if the CAF/Government had put the kind of effort it has put in to address Madame Deschamps report into address General Leslie's?

Maybe, we need some high profile civilian to do a study. That seems to be the only way to get change. If it is internal, it gets ignored but if it is external the government seems willing to move mountains.
 

Mediman14

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The last person to push change thru was Hillier and it actually ended up making things worse. He only managed to get half way thru before he retired and then they tried to revert back to the old way while still keeping the new commands. It slowed things down rather than making us more agile which was his intent.

Then Leslie did up his huge analysis and it contained a lot of good recommendations. Then he retired and everyone ignored it. Imagine if the CAF/Government had put the kind of effort it has put in to address Madame Deschamps report into address General Leslie's?

Maybe, we need some high profile civilian to do a study. That seems to be the only way to get change. If it is internal, it gets ignored but if it is external the government seems willing to move mountains.
You are so right with having an external review. But I am not sure about a profile civilian doing it as there might be some political pressure involved. Someone of normal stature would probably be just as good if not better, but it is a big steep mountain to climb.
I feel bad for the next CDS , not to say that Vance was bad or anything, but the next CDS has to deal with a failing organization that many had neglected to deal with . Maybe the CDS will be told differently. In my career, it amazes me how CSM’s and CO’s did not see what was happening around them. I was in some briefings in the past, the CO’s was often fed lies and crap by other officers. Eventually those officers hit promoted. That was our future. Say what like, it happens.
 

MJP

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How many bases have functioning fixed-wing airfields anymore? Nearby civilian strips perhaps but you'd still have the 'last mile' problem.
Agreed buying more aircraft when we can barely man the ones we have now, to transport parts sounds like the throwaway COA one includes with real solutions.

I would say we need to try and solve the issue through existing infra, capital fleets and PYs first and then go begging for more. The Amazon fulfillment center mentioned by FJAG is one variation that can be looked at. We could investigate the high demand part and re-apportion them properly across the country including if we had too, opening smaller more agile "depots" inside existing infra. I bet if we dived through the numbers only a small percentage of our NSNs are truly fast moving and represent a large portion of national orders.

Geography kills us in any supply chain with only two strategic depots combined with the fact we don't buy a "mountain of parts" anymore. With limited parts often the default setting by the LCMM/SM is 1Z release which means they need to get involved manually in the ordering process. This means any order whether we automate it though max/mins, demand to fulfill a work order or order in the system manually needs manual intervention. Some LCMMs/SM are great but most fall below great and struggle to understand how the system* works and therefore gatekeep parts or are not timely in releasing parts. This often means that L4 & L3 staffs have engage through other means to get parts release and any time spent doing that is time that can't be utilized elsewhere (opportunity cost).
 

dapaterson

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Amazon makes money by squeezing money out of labour. If you're willing for the CAF to take 30-50% pay cuts, plus loss of most benefits, there's an opportunity to mimic their model.
 

MJP

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Amazon makes money by squeezing money out of labour. If you're willing for the CAF to take 30-50% pay cuts, plus loss of most benefits, there's an opportunity to mimic their model.
I like it....oh wait wrong thread but if this the r/canadianforces this would fuel SCS memes for days

I was more musing on their ability to fill pre-position high demand items in certain areas less on their ability to squeeze the labour market.
 

daftandbarmy

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Amazon makes money by squeezing money out of labour. If you're willing for the CAF to take 30-50% pay cuts, plus loss of most benefits, there's an opportunity to mimic their model.

Just to keep the thread derail going....

I know we need everyone who works in a CAF warehouse setting to make $70-80 k per annum because all of it is so... so... mysterious, but FWIW here's a description of Amazon's approach to chaos management which, apparently, is their secret weapon. And this approach, of course, would clearly make your average RQ's head explode ;)


AMAZON
This company built one of the world’s most efficient warehouses by embracing chaos

Through its Prime membership, it has promised tens of millions of customers free two-day shipping on more than 100 million products, and, last year, it shipped 5 billion items to them. “That was the major innovation,” says Daniel Theobald, who cofounded a warehouse robotics company called Vecna in 1998 and counts major retailers and logistics companies as clients. “As soon as people realized, you can order something and get it tomorrow, that turned the industry upside down.”

The core of this disruptive efficiency, though, is not Amazon’s automated shelf-moving warehouse robots, which is the innovation that gets the most attention. And it isn’t, on its surface, something that you would associate with a well-oiled machine. It’s not even a breakthrough technology. In fact, some version of it was already in place when Alperson worked in Amazon’s early warehouses.

What makes Amazon’s warehouses work is the way they organize inventory: with complete randomness.

 

Furniture

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Just to keep the thread derail going....

I know we need everyone who works in a CAF warehouse setting to make $70-80 k per annum because all of it is so... so... mysterious, but FWIW here's a description of Amazon's approach to chaos management which, apparently, is their secret weapon. And this approach, of course, would clearly make your average RQ's head explode ;)


AMAZON
This company built one of the world’s most efficient warehouses by embracing chaos

Through its Prime membership, it has promised tens of millions of customers free two-day shipping on more than 100 million products, and, last year, it shipped 5 billion items to them. “That was the major innovation,” says Daniel Theobald, who cofounded a warehouse robotics company called Vecna in 1998 and counts major retailers and logistics companies as clients. “As soon as people realized, you can order something and get it tomorrow, that turned the industry upside down.”

The core of this disruptive efficiency, though, is not Amazon’s automated shelf-moving warehouse robots, which is the innovation that gets the most attention. And it isn’t, on its surface, something that you would associate with a well-oiled machine. It’s not even a breakthrough technology. In fact, some version of it was already in place when Alperson worked in Amazon’s early warehouses.

What makes Amazon’s warehouses work is the way they organize inventory: with complete randomness.

In what word does a non-spec Cpl working in a warehouse make $70K... As a WO pi1 I make under $80K. Perhaps the savings could be had by having people do realistic cost estimates... lol
 

FJAG

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Just to keep the thread derail going....

I know we need everyone who works in a CAF warehouse setting to make $70-80 k per annum because all of it is so... so... mysterious, but FWIW here's a description of Amazon's approach to chaos management which, apparently, is their secret weapon. And this approach, of course, would clearly make your average RQ's head explode ;)
I'll echo that. The fact that over one half of Canada's military budget goes to personnel costs (the vast majority full-timers) many of whom are doing jobs that on equivalent civvy street would draw half the wage is why we can't buy nice things like GBAD etc (and before all the flack is thrown my way, yes I know that there are many specialized skills and high risk jobs out there but military pay is based on civil service pay + and the civil service is greatly overpaid to start with)

Adding to the Amazon example, if you ever want to see organized chaos in action and you happen to be in the Netherlands, go visit the daily flower auction in Aalsmeer just south of Amsterdam near Schiphol airport. Every morning the 1,000,000 sq metre facility receives in 20,000,000 flowers from producers from all over the world, run them through an auction, settles the accounts in the five banks on site (probably more now) and by early afternoon has them on trucks, trains and airplanes going all over the world. The picture below shows about 1/4 of the active floor space. It's a combination of very high tech and a lot of analog handling by workers who need to assemble and shuffle lots from producers to the right buyers at a frantic pace.

5d682b7be78af.image.jpg


🍻
 

MilEME09

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Honestly the lack of automation at the depot level astounds me, really places like 7CFSD should be running like a Amazon warehouse, heavy automation, each NSN have a bar code, stored on shelves, picked, manually verified, packed and shipped. While robots and increased electronics I think is bad on the front lines, there is no good reason our 4th line depots and bases are not more automated for efficiency.
 

SupersonicMax

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In what word does a non-spec Cpl working in a warehouse make $70K... As a WO pi1 I make under $80K. Perhaps the savings could be had by having people do realistic cost estimates... lol
WO base salary, excluding allowances, is $77K. Cpl base salary is $60K and $64K at PI 4. With allowances, it is not unconceivable for a Cpl working in a warehouse to make around $70K...
 

Furniture

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WO base salary, excluding allowances, is $77K. Cpl base salary is $60K and $64K at PI 4. With allowances, it is not unconceivable for a Cpl working in a warehouse to make around $70K...
What I was pointing out is that the $70-80K figure is pretty far out of step with base pay. Apart from a few bases most CAF personnel are not making much in allowances, particularly those posted base side in a warehouse.

I'll echo that. The fact that over one half of Canada's military budget goes to personnel costs (the vast majority full-timers) many of whom are doing jobs that on equivalent civvy street would draw half the wage is why we can't buy nice things like GBAD etc (and before all the flack is thrown my way, yes I know that there are many specialized skills and high risk jobs out there but military pay is based on civil service pay + and the civil service is greatly overpaid to start with)
🍻
Could you specifically list the trades, and positions that are paid twice what they are worth?

I see this repeated by some on this forum, but never see specifics of which trades, and which positions are so significantly overpaid.
 

Halifax Tar

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What I was pointing out is that the $70-80K figure is pretty far out of step with base pay. Apart from a few bases most CAF personnel are not making much in allowances, particularly those posted base side in a warehouse.


Could you specifically list the trades, and positions that are paid twice what they are worth?

I see this repeated by some on this forum, but never see specifics of which trades, and which positions are so significantly overpaid.

I'm pretty sure they are talking about me and my ilk.
 

Halifax Tar

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What people forget is that pay isn't tied to your job its tied to your rank. Allowances for qualifications and environment are remuneration for ones specific task.

If you want to cut the WO Sgt Sup Tech pay by 50%, your going to have to do that to the WO rank, not to a singular trade.

And I mean really with how well our logistics is going I can see no reason why cutting it off at the knees at this point wouldn't make perfect sense.
 

dapaterson

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In what word does a non-spec Cpl working in a warehouse make $70K... As a WO pi1 I make under $80K. Perhaps the savings could be had by having people do realistic cost estimates... lol
Cpl non spec basic is $60k. Add PLD in Edmonton. Voila. $70k per year Cpl.
 

MJP

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Honestly the lack of automation at the depot level astounds me, really places like 7CFSD should be running like a Amazon warehouse, heavy automation, each NSN have a bar code, stored on shelves, picked, manually verified, packed and shipped. While robots and increased electronics I think is bad on the front lines, there is no good reason our 4th line depots and bases are not more automated for efficiency.
How exactly are the depots set up? An how they do fulfill demands on daily basis? Now I know a little on how they work (not everything but that will change soon) and I agree there are likely many ways to make aspects more efficient but I contend that like most of your broad brush posts you are lacking in fidelity on how things actually are done but interested to see how you think they operate

BTW Depots are 3rd line not 4th which is generally considered industry when you talk about the greater supply chain.

Cpl non spec basic is $60k. Add PLD in Edmonton. Voila. $70k per year Cpl.
Add in LDA if they are working a 2nd line warehouse and boom a $75-80K a year Cpl in Edmonton. In risk of derailing the thread further it really disincentivizes moving folks as they resist losing that level of pay. Hell I made more as a mid level Capt getting LDA than I do as a Maj (until incentive 2 or 3).
 
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