M18 Hellcat

[ArmyRick]

I was watching military channel's tank restoration (Its a show where they re-build old tanks). I am not much into WW2 AFV but when they showed what the M18 Hellcat tank destroyer was capable of, I was impressed. It could roar along on at 53 MPH or 85 KM/H (Thats 1944 we are talking).

Is anybody else ever  heard of said beast and are they equally impressed by it?

 

[3rd Herd]

Not really impressed. It was a stop gap desgin to fill in due to bad doctrine. Quoting Steve Zaloga, " concludes that the M18 was "a bitter disappointment" in service, although in fairness that is at least partly due to the seriously flawed requirements which led to the design." For a technical overview see: 76mm Gun Motor Carriage M181-4,http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/m18hellcat.html

 

[Red 6]

Tank destroyers were a doctrinal problem from the moment they first entered combat in World War II. the trouble was they were often confused for tanks. Turret + AT gun on a speedy chassis = tank — that sort of thing. They were too thinly armored to slug it out with German armor, but TD's were regularly pressed into this role.

 

[Franko]

Stop gap indeed. It wasn't designed to be a tank at all.

More or less a Mobile Gun System....ring a bell?     

The entire idea was this vehicle would be lightly armored with a punch to "shoot and scoot" as it were.

Not designed to actually stand and fight in a pitched battle but to be in a defensive position and snipe at best, then roll back to the defensive position and start all over again.

The US Army dropped it after a while, I'm not too sure on the numbers they built.

Great as an enhancement to a battle group, not as the hammer. The powers that be at the time made the decision and dumped it pronto.

Shermans were being picked off at over 1300m by Panthers and Mk4 Pkw while their own rounds would literally bounce off.

Imagine a head on engagement.     

Great idea on paper....bad idea in reality.

My 0.02 Duram

Regards

 

[LineDoggie]

I may be wrong , but I remember it was the First American AFV with Torsion bar Suspension. Have seen it at several Ardennes Re-enactments and its a good looking vehicle until you realize the lightness of the Armor. It first saw Combat at Anzio

2,500 were produced by Oct. 1944, an Offshoot was the M39 Carrier, used both as a prime Mover and APC in WWII & seeing further service in Korea.

 

[Franko]

I think that you're correct IRT it being the first with torsion bar suspension....for the Allies.

The majority of the late model panzers IIRC had torsion bar suspension as well.

Regards

 

[Quag]

Great idea on paper....bad idea in reality.

Regards

I'm beginning to arrive at the conclusion that this doctrine covers just about everything ;D.

Just look at Karl Marx...

 

[TN2IC]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Oberiko/M18_Hellcat

Good info on there.

 

[a_majoor]

It suddenly occures to me that the Attack Helicopter is the modern day incarnation of the "Tank Destroyer", being fast, packing a big punch but having little armour to speak of (AH -64 Apache attack helicopters have been brought down by small arms fire).

Certainly there are many differences (the ability to move in 3 dimensions and having a quantum mobility advantage over tanks), but some of the essentials remain the same (including the idea that enemy ground forces will oblige in allowing the tank destroyer/attack helicopter to work the flanks without opposition).

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It combined a lackluster gun with very little armour and a poor doctrine. Although the gun was better than the stock 75mm, it was not up to the abilities of the 17pdr. The idea of the TD were to use the their cross-country ability to flank the German armour, generally the terrain and the quality of the German defense prevented that from happening and the TD were forced to engage German armour in defensive position, suffering losses as a result. Properly used they could hurt the German tanks quite well. They would have been a wonderful vehicle in North Africa.

 

[GK .Dundas]

While the it might not have been a 17 pounder the 76 mounted by the M18 had one thing going for it that 76 mm guns on the Shermans didn't .
The tank destroyers used a tungsten projectile had had a priority on it's issue.
I've alway thought that given a better (fully inclosed and slightly more armour ) turret it would have made a nice Lt.Tank for the corp recce regiments

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If I recall correctly from discussions on Tanknet, the tungsten penetrator was always in short supply. Ammunition issues seem to be the curse of the allies, The Boyes ATR only got a decent round after the gun was more or less obsolete, the 2 pdr was a good AT gun, but they never bothered to make a HE round until late into the war. The 6pdr with APDS was quite deadly and could penetrate more armour than the 75mm, but due to size had a poor HE performance, plus the APDS did come out till around early 44 if I recall correctly. The 17pdr had an issue with the APDS that lowered the accuracy that took some time to deal with. The Brits had a deadly AT gun in the 32pdr but never bothered to develop it into a tank/AT gun until they mounted it into the Tortoise (Post war tests on German armour was quite impressive, ripping apart a Panther’s front Glacis plate).

The 75mm in the Grant and early Sherman’s was based on the French 75 and issued with old stocks of ammunition. I seem to remember the Brits modifying captured German Stocks of 75mm to fit their 75’s.

 

[SprCForr]

I was impressed with it's speed. I like the series.

Anyone catch the Panther episode? Money is talking on that one!

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I got to crawl around Littlefields Panther prior to the installation of the final drive and such. The attention to detail he demands of his guys is stunning, even the welds are done in the same way as the Germans. He has around 211 AFV's I spent 8 hours on a private tour, you really need full week to take it all in. Each vehicle is restored as if the crew just stepped a away for a minute.

 

[SprCForr]

Well, I think I have next summer's vacation destination!