Judge torn on how to rule on soldier. "This service does strange things..."

[ballz]

http://thetelegram.com/index.cfm?sid=316871&sc=79

A Provincial Court judge wrestled Friday with how to sentence a former soldier suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder and facing serious charges.

It's a tough job, Judge Robert Hyslop admitted in delivering a decision on the case of Marshall Raymond Glover, who did tours in Bosnia and Afghanistan as a reservist with the Royal Newfoundland Regiment.

.....

He also screamed there was a bomb in the mall, mentioned the Taliban and warned of the end of the world.

Rest of the article is at the link.

 

[Scott]

Just a friendly suggestion: could you copy and past whole articles? It simply makes it easier for the people reading the thread and those who wish to quote something from the story.

Thanks

Scott
Army.ca Staff

 

[Journeyman]

I'm impressed by the supportive comments following the article.
Clearly a different audience than the babbling idiots posting at CBC Toronto  :

 

[Monsoon]

I'm not sure what to make of the PTSD diagnosis. It sounds to me like the poor guy is suffering from classical schizophrenia, which, naturally enough, is manifesting itself based on a recent intense experience in Afghanistan. We're sending about 4,000 guys a year through A-stan; according to these guys (http://www.schizophrenia.com/szfacts.htm) the prevalence of schizophrenia in the general population is 7.2 per 1,000, meaning that we can expect about 30 schizophrenic Afghan vets to pop up every year - particularly as the age range of serving guys also happens to be the age at which schizophrenia manifests itself (19-30).

I'm not sure that we're serving anyone well by misdiagnosing them with a site-specific illness like PTSD that seems to track various other well-established mental illnesses (schizophrenia, depression, anxiety disorder), even if it does win them a medical pension.

 

[ballz]

Just a friendly suggestion: could you copy and past whole articles? It simply makes it easier for the people reading the thread and those who wish to quote something from the story.

Thanks

Scott
Army.ca Staff

Roger that. I thought for some reason it was site guidelines, or established practice, to post a small quote from the article with the link. Will remember for next time.

I'm impressed by the supportive comments following the article.
Clearly a different audience than the babbling idiots posting at CBC Toronto  :

Newfoundland is pretty good for that, what with the high rate of enrollment from here and the RNR is a pretty historic thing, tons and tons of people here have ancestors that were in the RNR or died at Beaumont Hamel and many people here have family in the military. The Telegram, however, is pretty darn left-wing.

 

[GAP]

Roger that. I thought for some reason it was site guidelines, or established practice, to post a small quote from the article with the link.

When posting multiple articles, I tend to use only snippets, otherwise the "Sandbox Thread" for example, get unwieldy. When you are just posting one article, and the author is not delving into minutia or a complete history of the issue, then for the reader it makes more ease in reading if it is posted as a whole.

 

[the 48th regulator]

I'm not sure what to make of the PTSD diagnosis. It sounds to me like the poor guy is suffering from classical schizophrenia, which, naturally enough, is manifesting itself based on a recent intense experience in Afghanistan. We're sending about 4,000 guys a year through A-stan; according to these guys (http://www.schizophrenia.com/szfacts.htm) the prevalence of schizophrenia in the general population is 7.2 per 1,000, meaning that we can expect about 30 schizophrenic Afghan vets to pop up every year - particularly as the age range of serving guys also happens to be the age at which schizophrenia manifests itself (19-30).

I'm not sure that we're serving anyone well by misdiagnosing them with a site-specific illness like PTSD that seems to track various other well-established mental illnesses (schizophrenia, depression, anxiety disorder), even if it does win them a medical pension.

Hamiltongs,

The article states that he was assessed with post-traumatic stress disorder.  I would assume that is was military professionals that are employed, based on their experience, to recognize the difference between PTSD and schizophrenia, not someone sitting in front of a computer with access to Google.


An operational stress injury (OSI) is any persistent psychological difficulty resulting from military service. OSIs include diagnosed medical conditions such as anxiety, depression and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

And, please note that  anxiety, depression and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) are all recognized as separate mental injuries.

Without further taking it off the record, we have multiple threads that deal with the specifics, regarding definition and symptoms of OSI's

dileas

tess

 

[leroi]

ballz,

Thank you for posting that ~I was so impressed with the judge's ruling .

Hopefully, the media attention will help gather more support for the family too.

As already noted, sharing a one-bedroom apartment with his Mom may be okay for now, but for the long term this family will need to be re-housed in a two bedroom dwelling.

Surely the province and community can help with this?  I've heard there's much community goodwill in Newfoundland.

Maybe some letters of support via the Telegram or the judge can help this ex-soldier?

 

[ballz]

It says in the article it's a "basement" apartment. In St. John's basement apartments are very commonly 2 bdrm. It's also his sister that owns the house and more than likely lives upstairs, so he will be surrounded by family and I'm sure they will work it out that he gets his own room.

That being said if there is something of that sort that needs to be accomplished, I am more than sure that if it can be accomplished through the community, this is the place for it. If there is something that needs to be done I am quite confident in fellow Newfoundlanders to do it.

What else needs to be done? How do you go about writing a letter of support to a judge?

Perhaps I will write a letter to the Telegram as they post a new one everyday. And if somebody else wants to I can drop it off for them at the Telegram's office.

I am reading some of the new comments.... There's two people there now sort of blaming the CF for this... No tsure what I think of it as I have never been in a unit and have zero experience with any of it.

"Organizations want people with PTSD just to go away instead of trying to help. Out of sight and out of mind. Thank god this was not another Ottawa incident. Maybe the people responsible for Glover,Military, should be investigated to see what if anything they done to help Glover."

"Judge Hyslops decision in this case demonstrates human compassion well beyond that shown by our armed forces in attending to those broken spirits who so valiently defended our freedom - even at the expense of their own well being and mental and physical health. We need more leaders like Judge Hyslop."

 

[Monsoon]

The article states that he was assessed with post-traumatic stress disorder.  I would assume that is was military professionals that are employed, based on their experience, to recognize the difference between PTSD and schizophrenia, not someone sitting in front of a computer with access to Google.


An operational stress injury (OSI) is any persistent psychological difficulty resulting from military service. OSIs include diagnosed medical conditions such as anxiety, depression and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

And, please note that  anxiety, depression and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) are all recognized as separate mental injuries.

Tess,

Without derailing the thread further, all I wanted to do was point out that there's a natural prevalence of mental illness in the population in general, and that some of what gets called PTSD in CF members may just attributable to that. I have a civilian friend who was diagnosed with PTSD after experiencing a specific traumatic event, but it seems questionable to me that someone experiencing delusions and flattened affect would be diagnosed with a "stress" disorder.

Obviously he was diagnosed by a military professional, but there's certainly no shortage of debate about the decisions of other military professionals on this forum. I don't see any reason to imbue CF psychologists with greater infallibility than anyone else. The definition of OSI you posted is absolutely correct; the room for interpretation (professional or otherwise) is in whether or not this particular difficulty is "resulting from" his military service or "incidental to" it. Obviously the interviewing psychologist decided on the former.

But here's a newspaper headline you'll never read: Recently returned Afghan vet drives through liquor store window. "He's just got a mental illness," say family.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Tess,

Without derailing the thread further, all I wanted to do was point out that there's a natural prevalence of mental illness in the population in general, and that some of what gets called PTSD in CF members may just attributable to that. I have a civilian friend who was diagnosed with PTSD after experiencing a specific traumatic event, but it seems questionable to me that someone experiencing delusions and flattened affect would be diagnosed with a "stress" disorder.

Obviously he was diagnosed by a military professional, but there's certainly no shortage of debate about the decisions of other military professionals on this forum. I don't see any reason to imbue CF psychologists with greater infallibility than anyone else. The definition of OSI you posted is absolutely correct; the room for interpretation (professional or otherwise) is in whether or not this particular difficulty is "resulting from" his military service or "incidental to" it. Obviously the interviewing psychologist decided on the former.

But here's a newspaper headline you'll never read: Recently returned Afghan vet drives through liquor store window. "He's just got a mental illness," say family.

Have you factored in the demographics, of those suffering from Mental illness in the general population, as compared to those that serve.

Age, physical health, etc?  Now you feel the right criticize the integrity of the those that screen our recruits.

You want to play the statistic game, do it right.  As for questioning professionalism, what do we do next. You challenge the integrity and professionalism of a Doctor, would you do the same for a soldier who is hit by an IED? "Yep, it must be the soldiers fault, he should have anticipated an alternative route, if he had, he would have his limbs right now"

Please give credit to the Doctor involved, and the system that is helping the soldier.  You are making it out to be some sort rag tag conglomerate of lazy people, quick to issue diagnosis, so they can head down to the local pub and talk about the recent Curling game.

And don't bother me with regurgitated anecdotes, unless you can fully explain the outcome of your "friends" condition.  Are you treating him, if so, you breached confidentiality, as a clinician.  You are one, I assume based on your valued and experienced reasoning.....  (Note to reader, that last bit was purposely meant to sound sarcastic).

dileas

tess

 

[Monsoon]

Tess,

As far as my background knowledge and experience with PTSD, schizophrenia, depression and other forms of mental illness, that's - not to put too fine a point on it - none of your G-D business. But rest assured that reasonable, informed and trained people differ in opinions on such matters.

As luck would have it I don't feel like getting into an online pissing match with a complete stranger tonight, so whatever battle it is you're fighting here, you've won it. Congratulations.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Tess,

As far as my background knowledge and experience with PTSD, schizophrenia, depression and other forms of mental illness, that's - not to put too fine a point on it - none of your G-D business. But rest assured that reasonable, informed and trained people differ in opinions on such matters.

As luck would have it I don't feel like getting into an online pissing match with a complete stranger tonight, so whatever battle it is you're fighting here, you've won it. Congratulations.

Gee thanks.

Just trying to ensure that the armchair clinicians, don't judge the Doctor's Background based on a newspaper article.

Helps stop the stigma within the military, Which is my G-D business...

dileas

tess

 

[Journeyman]

Recently returned Afghan vet drives through liquor store window. "He's just got a mental illness," say family.

Well, since this minor pissing contest has derailed the thread somewhat, allow me to continue it's journey into the shrubbery...

Coming back from A'stan, we had to do a psychological evaluation. The boss said he wanted to sell Pay-Per-View tickets to my Psych Eval, saying, "I've known you for years and I'd love to see you convince her that you've always been this way; it wasn't the tour that made you like... this."

;D


I now return you to tonight's episode of "He said; She said" 

 

[Otis]

I now return you to tonight's episode of "He said; She said" 

:rofl:

Thanks Jman ... I was beginning to think that EVERYONE took thier bitchy-pills tonight ...

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

"This service does strange things to your head," Hyslop said.

...........don't ya just love judges?

Medical Studies?- No
Military Time?- No
God Complex?- Check

 

[Another Mom]

As someone who works in the field, it is sometimes very difficult to diagnose disorders based on self-report, report of others and on observation, which what most psychiatric disorders are. Symptoms change, presentation change and sometimes people do not self report accurately for  many reasons. Sometimes family members do not report behaviors accurately. I know that from behind the scenes, the team is sometimes thinking  "well, right now, it looks like this, but it could be that".  Often patients are given a  provisional diagnosis until more evidence emerges. So it is much more complicated than CF doctors "recognizing" disorders and they know that. Only obvious diagnoses are made that way.  In very difficult circumstances in my situation, patients are observed as inpatients for a time so that accurate observation of rarely  occurring behavior can occur. This is very expensive and cannot occur as often as it is really needed. So we do the best we can and  diagnoses get changed as more evidence emerges. So even if the fellow above has something else instead of, or in addition to PTSD, it is not a bad reflection on any medical personal who saw it as PTSD at the time of that diagnosis. The point is to go forward with new information, not blame anyone because they did not a a crystal ball to see how the  disorder would unfold over time.  As for the "service doing strange things", sometimes people are predisposed to  disorders but they need a stress trigger to unfold. Seems to me,  the sleep deprivation,  the frequent moves and the physical and mental demands of being a soldier would be a perfect trigger.

 

[seagirl80]

Glover do indeed suffer from P.T.S.D. Judging his mental health on the word of a media source is the same as a judge manking commets on a case before him for such a breif time. The media protray's the angle they are looking for to sell more of thier product.