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Joe Biden gives up on the war in Afghanistan, leaving a weak ally

Humphrey Bogart

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The reality is that the War in Afghanistan was never about nation-building, women's rights, fighting poverty, etc. These are all things that may have come about as a result of the Military Campaign but it was never the aim.

The objectives were largely achieved when we routed Al Qaeda and killed Bin Laden and rolled up his network. The mistake was overstaying and thinking we were there to Nation build. The Taliban =/= Al Qaeda and vice-versa. Canada already made a decision long ago that we didn't care about Afghanistan by withdrawing completely from the South over a decade ago. Afghanistan needs to build its own future, whatever that looks like.

Impoverished children and tribal warfare was not the reason we deployed to Afghanistan and while impoverished children are a sad sight, there are impoverished children in Canada where our energy would be better spent.

Think of the people killed in the 9/11 attacks, including Canadians. I would say we made our enemies more than pay for that attack and the conditions that allowed that to occur no longer exist. Sometimes Victory doesn't look what you think it looks like.
 

NavyShooter

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That's quite succinct - a better way to express it than what I'd been thinking. My son was asking me about this yesterday.

My basic thoughts - Afghanistan was a breeding ground for terrorists when under the control of the Taliban. That breeding ground generated some of the terrorists that knocked down the twin towers, the London bus bombing, and the train bombing in Madrid.

Our soldiers being boots on the ground over there helped to prevent one of those attacks from happening in Canada. The Toronto 18 got close, but in taking the fight to the enemy, we reduced the likelihood of a successful attack happening in our home land.

In my opinion, what's likely to happen now is a messy civil war, that will, for the next 2-4 years keep that part of the world embroiled in itself. After that, well, we again face a likely breeding ground that will spawn more of what caused the initial boots to be sent there.

What we do over the next several years to prepare for that impending threat is important.

How we commemorate those who paid the price to keep the evil away from our homes is important.

How we care for those who came home, but left a part of themselves, or their mind in that place is very important.

I agree, victory doesn't always look like what you think it looks like.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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That's quite succinct - a better way to express it than what I'd been thinking. My son was asking me about this yesterday.

My basic thoughts - Afghanistan was a breeding ground for terrorists when under the control of the Taliban. That breeding ground generated some of the terrorists that knocked down the twin towers, the London bus bombing, and the train bombing in Madrid.

Our soldiers being boots on the ground over there helped to prevent one of those attacks from happening in Canada. The Toronto 18 got close, but in taking the fight to the enemy, we reduced the likelihood of a successful attack happening in our home land.

In my opinion, what's likely to happen now is a messy civil war, that will, for the next 2-4 years keep that part of the world embroiled in itself. After that, well, we again face a likely breeding ground that will spawn more of what caused the initial boots to be sent there.

What we do over the next several years to prepare for that impending threat is important.

How we commemorate those who paid the price to keep the evil away from our homes is important.

How we care for those who came home, but left a part of themselves, or their mind in that place is very important.

I agree, victory doesn't always look like what you think it looks like.
Concur with most of what you've said. It will depend on if the Taliban renege on their deal with the US Government which, might I add, the current Afghan Government was not privy to or even invited for discussions.

The US agreed with the Taliban to withdraw from Afghanistan on the condition that the Taliban not allow Afghan soil to be used by anyone to threaten the United States. They also had to enter in to negotiations with other Afghan side(s) (there are multiple) to forge an Afghanistan that is at peace with itself. Those negotiations are ongoing but the Taliban hold most of the cards

The Taliban needed Al Qaeda when they initially swept through Afghanistan in the mid 1990s as the Egyptian and Saudi leadership funneled weapons, funding and fighters to them. They also provided their best fighters who were all foreigners (055 brigade, etc) and helped the Taliban win many of their victories. They then outlived their usefulness and became a burden to the Taliban because they gained outsized influence and started attacking others like the United States which brought the GWoT to Afghanistan. This hurt the Taliban significantly.

The Taliban leadership are rational actors, they've made peace with the US for all intents and purposes and are now turning their attention to other issues like how do they actually conquer and govern Afghanistan? The United States achieves its security objectives while the Taliban no longer have to contend with their greatest threat. The United States hasn't suffered a casualty to hostile fire in Afghanistan in over a year and that isn't by coincidence.
 
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dimsum

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What we do over the next several years to prepare for that impending threat is important.

How we commemorate those who paid the price to keep the evil away from our homes is important.

How we care for those who came home, but left a part of themselves, or their mind in that place is very important.
Spot on.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Concur with most of what you've said. It will depend on if the Taliban renege on their deal with the US Government which, might I add, the current Afghan Government was not privy to or even invited for discussions.

The US agreed with the Taliban to withdraw from Afghanistan on the condition that the Taliban not allow Afghan soil to be used by anyone to threaten the United States. They also had to enter in to negotiations with other Afghan side(s) (there are multiple) to forge an Afghanistan that is at peace with itself. Those negotiations are ongoing but the Taliban hold most of the cards

The Taliban needed Al Qaeda when they initially swept through Afghanistan in the mid 1990s as the Egyptian and Saudi leadership funneled weapons, funding and fighters to them. They also provided their best fighters who were all foreigners (055 brigade, etc) and helped the Taliban win many of their victories. They then outlived their usefulness and became a burden to the Taliban because they gained outsized influence and started attacking others like the United States which brought the GWoT to Afghanistan. This hurt the Taliban significantly.

The Taliban leadership are rational actors, they've made peace with the US for all intents and purposes and are now turning their attention to other issues like how do they actually conquer and govern Afghanistan? The United States achieves its security objectives while the Taliban no longer have to contend with their greatest threat. The United States hasn't suffered a casualty to hostile fire in Afghanistan in over a year and that isn't by coincidence.
They are not rational actors in the sense that the West sees it. Eventually they go full nutbar first on their own people, then on anyone else. They may currently only have regional aspirations, but the basis of Islam is about expansion and conquest and that is going to bubble to the surface at some point.
 

daftandbarmy

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They are not rational actors in the sense that the West sees it. Eventually they go full nutbar first on their own people, then on anyone else. They may currently only have regional aspirations, but the basis of Islam is about expansion and conquest and that is going to bubble to the surface at some point.

It's all about reimposing Sharia Law. Let the public stonings commence....

From 2019:

UNDERSTANDING THE ADVERSARY: WHAT THE TALIBAN THINK ABOUT AFGHANISTAN PEACE NEGOTIATIONS​

The Taliban’s Logic for Peace Negotiations

As with the justification for their “jihad” in Afghanistan based on “sharia,” the Taliban also turned to “sharia” to guide their “negotiations” with the Americans. The group has published a series of fatwa-like commentaries under the title “Afghanistan’s contemporary jihad based on sharia” on its Pashto website. In April last year, they declared:

In response to the US occupation, defensive jihad is mandatory based on sharia, and if the enemy is keen for peace, then peace must be also based on sharia.
Peace according to “sharia” is further explained in subsequent documents. In June, the Taliban reaffirmed that the goal of their current “jihad” is the “end of occupation” and the introduction of the “rule of sharia in Afghanistan.” According to the group, the goals of any kind of potential peace should be precisely the “same as the goals of ongoing jihad” itself.

In its religious manifesto titled, “The goals of peace with the Americans should be based on sharia,” the Taliban maintain:

Based on sharia, peace is a moral jihad, if the mentioned goals of jihad [end of occupation and rule of sharia] can be achieved through peace, then there should be peace. And if the goals of muslims are not achieved in peace, then peace is prohibited, and jihad remains obligatory against occupiers.

 

CBH99

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It's all about reimposing Sharia Law. Let the public stonings commence....

From 2019:

UNDERSTANDING THE ADVERSARY: WHAT THE TALIBAN THINK ABOUT AFGHANISTAN PEACE NEGOTIATIONS​

The Taliban’s Logic for Peace Negotiations

As with the justification for their “jihad” in Afghanistan based on “sharia,” the Taliban also turned to “sharia” to guide their “negotiations” with the Americans. The group has published a series of fatwa-like commentaries under the title “Afghanistan’s contemporary jihad based on sharia” on its Pashto website. In April last year, they declared:


Peace according to “sharia” is further explained in subsequent documents. In June, the Taliban reaffirmed that the goal of their current “jihad” is the “end of occupation” and the introduction of the “rule of sharia in Afghanistan.” According to the group, the goals of any kind of potential peace should be precisely the “same as the goals of ongoing jihad” itself.

In its religious manifesto titled, “The goals of peace with the Americans should be based on sharia,” the Taliban maintain:



So if I understand the main points of the article correctly, the main points of peace for the Taliban are:

1. End of occupation
2. Afghans must live under sharia law. Period. Anything else would be deemed unallowable.


So peace, but under tyrants, imposing laws and rules that bring Afghanistan back to where it was before the west 'visited for a decade or two'. Sounds charming.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Basically anything that furthers fundamental Islam is allowed under fundamental Islam, including lying under oath.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Not really, Islam was a religion built around conquest and submission with no other purpose than to impose it on everyone else. Judaism certainly does not, Christianity offers other alternatives, Hindu's do not try to make the world Hindu, nor do Buddhists, Sikhs, etc
 

Brad Sallows

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the main points of peace for the Taliban are:

There is only one, "submission".

Over time, there is only one pattern: retreat and offer to negotiate when weak; attack when strong. Negotiation is just a time-buyer; the terms are meaningless.
 

MarkOttawa

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And what will our government do for those who worked for Canada?

Biden directs evacuation flights for Afghan interpreters to begin late July​

Officials are declining to say where Afghan nationals will be sent as they await their visas to come to the U.S.

President Joe Biden has directed evacuation flights for Afghan interpreters and other nationals who helped the U.S. military during the 20-year conflict to begin late July, the White House announced on Wednesday.

Afghan nationals in the pipeline for special immigrant visas and their families will wait in one or more locations outside of Afghanistan while the State Department finishes processing their paperwork to enter the United States, White House press secretary Jen Psaki told reporters.

Psaki declined to provide details about where the Afghans are going or how many applicants are eligible for the relocation flights. However, the administration is looking at using U.S. military bases to temporarily host those eligible, along with a number of other locations, a defense official said.

The news comes less than a week after Biden announced that the United States would begin relocation flights for the thousands of Afghans this month, as the U.S. military approaches the end of the Afghanistan drawdown. U.S. Central Command said this week that the withdrawal is 95 percent complete...

In a sign that Afghans might be sent to Central Asia, Ambassador Tracey Jacobson, a three-time chief of mission in Tajikistan, Turkmenistan and Kosovo, is leading the State Department unit responsible for the effort, dubbed "Operation Allies Refuge."

The group also includes representatives from the Departments of Defense and Homeland Security. Russ Travers, the deputy homeland security adviser and former head of the National Counterterrorism Center, is coordinating the effort across agencies.

A U.S. delegation will travel to Uzbekistan this week to meet with leaders across central Asia, the White House announced earlier on Wednesday. Zalmay Khalilzad, the U.S. special representative for Afghanistan reconciliation, will be among the delegation.

As for Canada:

Former Afghan drivers who worked for Canada say their lives are in danger from Taliban reprisals​

...
Alexander Cohen, a spokesperson for Immigration Minister Marco Mendicino, said for security reasons “we do not comment on specific operational matters of our missions abroad.”

“We are currently working to assist some individuals previously or currently employed by the Canadian government in Afghanistan, who wish to come here,” he said...

Mr. Cohen said last week that more than 800 Afghan nationals, including family members, were resettled to Canada under two previous policies. Afghans who were not eligible under the policies, he said, may apply to immigrate to Canada through existing provisions under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.

A government source told The Globe and Mail last week that Ottawa is quickly working through individual cases to move them through the immigration and refugee system. The Globe is not identifying the official because they were not authorized to speak publicly about the issue.

The official said 40 Afghans, most of whom were interpreters, while some served in other roles, have indicated that they want to come to Canada, in addition to Afghan staff who work at the Canadian embassy. The official said the government is expecting more...

Time may well be running out, Ottawa.

Mark
Ottawa
 

CBH99

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And what will our government do for those who worked for Canada?



As for Canada:



Time may well be running out, Ottawa.

Mark
Ottawa
The fact that we pulled out a decade ago from the combat mission in Kandahar, and it still isn't done, is mind boggling. I know this doesn't rest purely on our current PM's watch - but the current situation is unfolding while he is in power.

Identify who qualifies. Find them. Extract them. They can sort out the paperwork later. (Heaven forbid we do things out of order, even when it comes to saving the lives of people who risked themselves & their families to assist us.)

Just get it done Ottawa.
 

dimsum

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Heaven forbid we do things out of order, even when it comes to saving the lives of people who risked themselves & their families to assist us.
Have you never dealt with government before? o_O

They need a pre-brief for the DM, for the brief, then the pre-brief for the Minister, then the brief...
 

OldSolduer

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The fact that we pulled out a decade ago from the combat mission in Kandahar, and it still isn't done, is mind boggling. I know this doesn't rest purely on our current PM's watch - but the current situation is unfolding while he is in power.

Identify who qualifies. Find them. Extract them. They can sort out the paperwork later. (Heaven forbid we do things out of order, even when it comes to saving the lives of people who risked themselves & their families to assist us.)

Just get it done Ottawa.
The PM couldn't care less - he'll blame Harper and the Conservatives.

But when we see the reports of the slaughter of former interpreters he will cry and snivel like he usually does. He's an actor by trade, remember that.
 

dangerboy

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Here is what Global Affairs is saying Canada to aid Afghanistan after U.S. troop withdrawal next month, minister says

Global Affairs Canada spokesman Grantly Franklin said Ottawa calls for a permanent and comprehensive ceasefire to end the interminable suffering of the Afghan people and facilitate provision of humanitarian assistance.

"Canada's engagement in Afghanistan prioritizes peace, democracy and human rights," he said in a statement.

According to government data, about 40,000 Canadians served in Afghanistan from 2001 to 2014, with Canada providing a total of $3.6 billion in aid to the country since 2001.

Canada's efforts in Afghanistan have contributed to a real improvement in the lives of the most vulnerable, Franklin said. "Women and children in particular have better access to education, health and human rights, and Canada will do its utmost to preserve these gains."

Personally, I don't see how we can possibly do what he says without troops on the ground.
 

Good2Golf

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Here is what Global Affairs is saying Canada to aid Afghanistan after U.S. troop withdrawal next month, minister says



Personally, I don't see how we can possibly do what he says without troops on the ground.
That was one of the most vacuous statements I’ve ever heard out of our government.

This is another one from the same article, from the Minister of International Development, Karina Gould…
Gould said in an interview that Canada is constantly monitoring and evaluating the situation through dialogue with its partners including non-governmental organizations and United Nations agencies.

"At this point in time, our partners continue to work and deliver services for the Afghan people."

WTH does that mean?!?

Partners? Taliban-resilient partners?
 

OldSolduer

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That was one of the most vacuous statements I’ve ever heard out of our government.

This is another one from the same article, from the Minister of International Development, Karina Gould…


WTH does that mean?!?

Partners? Taliban-resilient partners?
I'll tell you what it is - that statement is a load of horseshit pure and simple.

The current crop of Liberals are intellectual light weights - I'd say half wits but that would be insulting true half wits - who have zero grasp on international affairs, or being a good partner in anything.
 

Jarnhamar

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  • Ottawa will continue sending humanitarian and development assistance to Afghanistan
  • 50 per cent of Afghans rely on such help for basic necessities.
  • he Taliban claimed it now controls 85 per cent of Afghanistan's territory
  • In November, Canada pledged $270 million in additional development assistance through 2024.

We're basically paying the Taliban.
Nice.
 
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