Issues with Enforcement and Maintenance of Discipline

[FastEddy]

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CTD, thank you for your extensive commentary on the Subject matter of this Thread.

However, to answer some of your concerns or questions, I would need a bit more information on certain
Statements or Questions you have posed.

You have stated that you have had conciderable dealings with the MP, in what capacity ?.

You have also mentioned the occurrence of a Theft, what was stolen ? where was it stolen from ?
what time of day ? and why the assumption that it was stolen.

 

[childs56]

Dealing  with the MP's into matters of harassment investigations to which they picked me up asked a few questions then handed me off to NIS, x4 of those.

A few times of speeding tickets, of which i wasn't speeding, 110km/hr in an MLVW. Hmm intresting.

A few times putting  people in the drunk tank.

A few thefts that had occurred of military equipment

Lectures on take downs and stuff (those were excellent training a job well done by the instructors)

Dealings with after RCMP handing out a ticket to a military member, then telling the Member that he was wrong in not willfully showing the Police his civie drivers licence, even though on the 404 it clearly states not to. Any ways an apologies was sent later by the Police on the matter once they found out the Military diver was correct and their procedures were not on par as to the rules of DND Vehicles.

Few times driving DND vehicles th rue gates at military establishments and having them ponder what it was i was doing their.
Threatening to tow a Gun Tractor and  Howitzer because it was parked in the parking lot where i was told to park.
Halled out of the shower because i was parked in a reserved parking spot, even though it was reserved from 0700hrs to 1630 hrs Mon to Fri. It was now 0620 hrs. once i got dressed and went outside to point this out to them they quickly apologized for this miscommunication, even though they had themselves told me they had went up to the vehicle and looked inside of it to see if any one was their. They had not seen the big sign that said reserved between the following hours.

I will say this not every MP I have met has been bad rude or in polite. a few have but that is life. The ones that have, had been forth comming with an apologies once the chain of command was informed of their behaviour. This has happend a couple of times. For the most part they have been friendly and very helpfull.

As for the recent theft of my property. Well I had a dirt bike which was located at CFB Borden in one of the parking lots where the school required all other vehicles and trailers to be.  It went missing Between 1300hrs June 30th and 1200hrs 01 July from the said location. How do i know it was a theft, well it was my property, and i never authorized any other persons to move touch or other wise replace the said dirt bike. So i think my assumption of it was a theft is not an assumption but a fact. The milk crate the bike was sitting on was moved to the back of the trailer it was next to. Placed neatly beside the Propane tank that had also been moved. So these two objects which were in a different location from the day prior were probelly moved by the perpentraitors as to gain more and easy access to the above item. Hence why maybe a finger print or two may have been able to been extracted. who really knows that was a week ago now. The fact that the MP's did not really disply the want or the need to go see where the bike was stolen is what really set me off as to how they respond.

This topic was on the RCMP replacing the MP's on base. Why not send the MP's to depot and have them trained as RCMP, then carry out their duties as MP's but also be able to carry out all other police functions as the locals can. Good bad idea. who knows.

 

[FastEddy]

D

This topic was on the RCMP replacing the MP's on base. Why not send the MP's to depot and have them trained as RCMP, then carry out their duties as MP's but also be able to carry out all other police functions as the locals can. Good bad idea. who knows.

Thanks CTD for the follow up. As for your some what more than usual encounters with the MP it seems that
they all went down quite smoothly and satisfactorily. Agreed, the number and freqency could be annoying.

Concerning the loss of your property, vehicular theft is a very common occurrence and handled by all agencies in
all most the sameway. The basic information is gathered by Uniformed officers Time,Date,Place,Description and
any pertinent facts. A Report is completed, A Case File Nr. is assigned, the Vehicle Particulars and Licence Nr.
are Put on a Hot Sheet and the B&W's Network. Even though the location where your Property was taken
from could be classified as a Crime Scene (but only in a very remote sense). The responding Uniform Officers
are not equipped to carry out any Forensic procedures. Nor would they call for Detectives who after evaluating
the Scene call for Forensics, in this matter. Now if this property was found to be used in the commission of
another crime, heres where the ball starts to roll. It may seem unfair or insufficient at the outset but their are
SOP's and Protocols.

With regard to your suggest that the MP should/could receive additional training at the RCMP Depot, I fully
agree and have mentioned it a few replies back, good thinking.

In reply to Micheal Shannon, it would provide them with additional how, when and why tools. Remember
Police Officers have specific Rolls and Duties, Detectives and Investigators are a field appart.
With regard to LEO's doing 6 to 8 times more than the MP, that basically depends where their assigned.
But then, judging from my expreience, at the outside I'd say 2 to 3 and thats going some.

 

[TCBF]

"At that time we did not have the mandate to investigate civilians (cadets) who committed a crime on DND property."

- And the local Mounties did not show any interest?  Odd...

Tom

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from CTD,
But i do know this if i had something stolen off the base and i called the Police they would have come to look at where the object was and then also looked to see if their were any finger prints, this small but major detail was omitted from my last dealing with the MP's. How do you expect to catch any one if they didn't even look or try to gather any evidence. guess it was another Axe to grind on my part. No this is real life and the expectations on my part would have to had a police officer come over look at where the object was, maybe see if it was possible to take prints, or even foot prints. Yet they failed to do this, the rudimentary of police work done when a theft has occurred. Maybe i am wrong i am not sure. But that is what the city and RCMP have done when things have been stolen. 

...you are dreaming if you think that to be true, they just don't have the resources. Bring us a picture and the serial numbers, thank you.

Quote from TCBF,
- And the local Mounties did not show any interest?  Odd...

...showing interest and having to prioritize those interests are two different ball games.

 

[TCBF]

..".showing interest and having to prioritize those interests are two different ball games."

The crime in question was Sexual Assault  I guess it wasn't Rape, as we used to call it.

Tom

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Apples and oranges there......

 

[S McKee]

Bruce is right TCBF, it is a matter of priorities and unfortunately money. If you have X amount of dollars in your  budget you are going to use that money to combat major problems that effect the citizens in your  community, not on a transient population of young offenders (in this case cadets) who may or may not show up for court. Remember the crown also has allot of say on what does or doesn't make it to court, and usually unless there is a reasonable chance of conviction they turf it.

 

[TCBF]

Seen.    So, how did we fix that problem?  Other than kid's parents sueing each other?

Tom

 

[childs56]

I am not going to get into a match here. Where i come from if your car, motorcycle or other object of such size is stolen the police will shall and have come by the crime scene, Usually within the Hour, They usually take pictures and try to go for finger prints, One reason for this is that the thief population is usually small and thus they have a better chance of finding the person, at the very least they had those prints and other clues on file for in the future. that way of similar incidents were to appear they may have some way to have connected or even determine if this is an ongoing problem.

The lack of response by the Detachment where i am is what is of concern to me. They never even came by to look. I may not be from the big city or such, but i am sure that with the over abundance of MP's as has been stated they surly could have come on by and at least taken a look, maybe even a picture of two and maybe even a finger print, i mean the oil that was on the object suspected to have been moved by the perpentrater should have resulted in some form of print.

But it is gone and i guess their is nothing i can do about it.  But please don't say that i am dreaming.

Maybe i am dreaming that the MP's would have carried out an analysis of the area. I will be away for a while and so wont be able to post back on this subject for some time, Hope you guys and gals have fun take care

 

[FastEddy]

I am not going to get into a match here. Where i come from if your car, motorcycle or other object of such size is stolen the police will shall and have come by the crime scene, Usually within the Hour, They usually take pictures and try to go for finger prints, One reason for this is that the thief population is usually small and thus they have a better chance of finding the person, at the very least they had those prints and other clues on file for in the future. that way of similar incidents were to appear they may have some way to have connected or even determine if this is an ongoing problem.

The lack of response by the Detachment where i am is what is of concern to me. They never even came by to look. I may not be from the big city or such, but i am sure that with the over abundance of MP's as has been stated they surly could have come on by and at least taken a look, maybe even a picture of two and maybe even a finger print, i mean the oil that was on the object suspected to have been moved by the perpentrater should have resulted in some form of print.

But it is gone and i guess their is nothing i can do about it.   But please don't say that i am dreaming.

Maybe i am dreaming that the MP's would have carried out an analysis of the area. I will be away for a while and so wont be able to post back on this subject for some time, Hope you guys and gals have fun take care

I have no answer as to why a B & W (MP Patrol Veh.) was not dispatched to your location and a report taken.
in person, maybe that could be best answered by a Serving MP. It does sound irregular.

I detailed the S.O.P for such a incident a little way back. Nothing more can be gained at the scene, other than
maybe if there was a witness who might offer descriptions etc. CTD, give it up, you really have a weak case.

 

[childs56]

My point is that people on here have said that the MP's are over worked in one statement  due to lack of people and stuff, yet in another they have the luxery to carry out deeper or lesser investigations due to more resources. It just sounds as if people are trying to fight for a cause that isnt really their.

The facts are crime on some of the larger military bases is higher then the local area, for what ever reason, it is their. It may only be petty crime such as theft under 5000 and such but it is their. ATV thefts on CFB Borden has always been high, why is that and how can that be abolished is the question. Really short of manning gates and such very little. Manning gates would involve doing random vehicle checks.

The US have MP's manning gates. Not to combat thefts as much as security of the base it self. God help if one day some lower then life scum drives a big old  truck on base full of explosives and plants it between accomadation buildings. What a shame and kick in the nuts that would be. I am all for base duty schedules to assit the MP's at the front gate if they need it. But we really need to start doing something. Our lives may depend on it one day.

The comment on having a weak case is kinda funny as people here have responded previously that the MP's respond in full and have more ability to investigate petty crimes much easier then the LP's. Now that they didnt it is intresting how people come up and say you have a weak case. The bottom line is that it is more then a Dirt bike stolen. It is a base wide security issue. We have members living un protected in a place that is prime location for an attack. Very easily accessed by all. I mean trying to do an attack down town Torornto would be much harder as the Police would be telling you to move along and come over if you didnt. Yet here on a military installation peopel come and go as they please, no challanging from any one. Ahh have to love it. 

A comment was made that MP's will step up patrols around the base as securtiy issues are on the rise(comment made elsewhere).

DO YOU FEEL SAFE

 

[GO!!!]

Part of the reason my spouse and I left the PMQs was to get away from the vandalism and theft that exists there, in addition to the borderline harassment you must endure when operating a motor vehicle on the base.

Why I was pulled over 4 times in as many weeks for "spot checks" is beyond me, I was never issued a ticket, or even a warning, they are always "just checking".

Yet certain wings of the shacks are blue with marijuana smoke some weekends - too bad they are never "checked" <that is what a "hotbox" is>.

While your defence of your trade and duties are commendable, my opinion in this matter remains unchanged and even more solidified. The RCMP would provide the CF with better, cheaper personnell, and allow the MPs to concentrate on securing our PWs/detainees, defence establishments at home and abroad, and the routes we use. The use of special vehicles, uniforms, and pay only seperates the MPs further from their duties on the Military side of the house. Soldier first, cop second.

OUT

 

[S McKee]

Part of the reason my spouse and I left the PMQs was to get away from the vandalism and theft that exists there, in addition to the borderline harassment you must endure when operating a motor vehicle on the base.

Why I was pulled over 4 times in as many weeks for "spot checks" is beyond me, I was never issued a ticket, or even a warning, they are always "just checking".

Yet certain wings of the shacks are blue with marijuana smoke some weekends - too bad they are never "checked" <that is what a "hotbox" is>.

While your defence of your trade and duties are commendable, my opinion in this matter remains unchanged and even more solidified. The RCMP would provide the CF with better, cheaper personnell, and allow the MPs to concentrate on securing our PWs/detainees, defence establishments at home and abroad, and the routes we use. The use of special vehicles, uniforms, and pay only seperates the MPs further from their duties on the Military side of the house. Soldier first, cop second.

OUT

GO If the MP were limited to base security and they stopped your vehicle at the maingate everyday for a security check or to see your ID card I suppose that would be harassment too.  I've heard the same line of reasoning from members when they see MP walking through the shacks "Your harassing us" yet the people who complain the most are usually the very same people who are making the air blue with marijuana smoke as you put it. Individuals with the mindset of "get rid of the MP" will never be happy with the MP no matter what role they perform. The bottom line is immature and cocky young soldiers (yourself excluded) just don't like being told what to do by their peers, especially ones they see in their own minds as not being "real soldiers".

 

[KevinB]

Yet certain wings of the shacks are blue with marijuana smoke some weekends - too bad they are never "checked" <that is what a "hotbox" is>.

A quick check of a few rooms left me appraised that one of the worst rooms was in fact habitated by a MP M/Cpl !

 

[FastEddy]

A quick check of a few rooms left me appraised that one of the worst rooms was in fact habitated by a MP M/Cpl !

Ahhh! KevinB, are you saying that the room was littered with empty liquor bottles, ashtrays full of roach's and used syringe's or just untidy and messy ?.

 

[FastEddy]

My point is that people on here have said that the MP's are over worked in one statement   due to lack of people and stuff, yet in another they have the luxery to carry out deeper or lesser investigations due to more resources. It just sounds as if people are trying to fight for a cause that isnt really their.

The facts are crime on some of the larger military bases is higher then the local area, for what ever reason, it is their. It may only be petty crime such as theft under 5000 and such but it is their. ATV thefts on CFB Borden has always been high, why is that and how can that be abolished is the question. Really short of manning gates and such very little. Manning gates would involve doing random vehicle checks.

The US have MP's manning gates. Not to combat thefts as much as security of the base it self. God help if one day some lower then life scum drives a big old   truck on base full of explosives and plants it between accomadation buildings. What a shame and kick in the nuts that would be. I am all for base duty schedules to assit the MP's at the front gate if they need it. But we really need to start doing something. Our lives may depend on it one day.

The comment on having a weak case is kinda funny as people here have responded previously that the MP's respond in full and have more ability to investigate petty crimes much easier then the LP's. Now that they didnt it is intresting how people come up and say you have a weak case. The bottom line is that it is more then a Dirt bike stolen. It is a base wide security issue. We have members living un protected in a place that is prime location for an attack. Very easily accessed by all. I mean trying to do an attack down town Torornto would be much harder as the Police would be telling you to move along and come over if you didnt. Yet here on a military installation peopel come and go as they please, no challanging from any one. Ahh have to love it.  

A comment was made that MP's will step up patrols around the base as securtiy issues are on the rise(comment made elsewhere).

DO YOU FEEL SAFE

Well it seems by your Posts that the Army has degenerated into a sad state of affairs and that our Army Bases have turned into Ghetto's.

Further, Civilian Criminal elements are targeting CF's Personnel and their Dependents and freely enter Military Bases unimpeded. If this is not the case, then this out break of crime is being committed by Service Personnel. Then if this is the case, then it is really a sad state of affairs.

You go on to say that there is less crime in the surrounding Communities. This further indicates that CF's Bases are the hub of Criminal activity. To add to all this, there is no MP presence.

If all of the above situations exist are common knowledge to the OR's and Jr. NCO's, whats going on with the people running the show ?.

Shacks, someone correct me if I'm wrong, They are storeage containers outside the Base Main Gate for the use of personnel to store unnecessary gear or prohibited items ?. ( there like shipping containers in appearance).

 

[KevinB]

Ahhh! KevinB, are you saying that the room was littered with empty liquor bottles, ashtrays full of roach's and used syringe's or just untidy and messy ?.

Nope - I was just wondering why some troops complaints abotu drug use keeps getting ignored and I went and looked over at the Barrack Wardens office at who inhabited three rooms - and one happened to be...




FWIW - I have gone to the MP complaint commission -- circa 2002 - my room was searched due to my discharge of a Police CN TearSmoke Grenade (public record) in the shacks - The MP's took several items out of my room items they had no authourity to do so (If they had not been just incredibly stupid it woudl have been theft...)   However they opened my roommates kit and found a bag of weed.   - They put it back -- I have the two MP's names BTW

I still have not received all my property back even after they where ordered - since they stated a weapons tech (who had no authority under the criminal code) claimed on the items was CF property (okay three incredibly stupid people).

Four people went and complained to the unti MP's about drug stuff.   - Nothing happened

I went to the NIS - with a few names etc.   Nothing happened

Heck one of the NIS guys was a MP who put Pte T's bag of dope back...    And The NIS MCPL fucked up a investigation about cocaine smuggling in Afghan.

You want to know why no one want to go down to the MP's shack - is WE DONT FUCKING TRUST YOU.
  Show me MP drug testing sheets and a level of competant investigation and someone will come talk to you.


I've talked to Base Drug Addictions guys too -- I have a raport with them due to my Alcohol issues of the mid 90's -- Sad thing is they have repeatedly told the Brigade Commander about the problem.
I bug the EPS guys to bring a Dog Team in for trainign ans if they "accidentally" find stuff in the shacks so be it 

Kevin.

 

[Infanteer]

Ok, I split this off from the MP Roles thread and left it here for a bit.  This is starting to get personal and the fingers are pointing everywhere, so don't be surprised if it disappears for the sake of not having the forums denigrate into a clearing-house for this kind of stuff.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

A quick check of a few rooms left me appraised that one of the worst rooms was in fact habitated by a MP M/Cpl !

Mother of God - is it really that bad?