Infantry Navigation

[spkeown]

How different are the navigational tasks of LAV III companies as compared to dismounted Infantry companies. If terrain is thought of like a board of wood with a natural "grain" that are the simplest modes of transportation, to what degree are these different companies able to go against that grain. I read (don't remember where...can't cite) that special forces are so unique in that they specialize in taking unorthodox routes (i.e. through a river, down a cliff, etc.) and was wondering how this applied to the Infantry as a whole.

If LAV III crews have more restrictions with regard to navigational routes (as one would expect with a vehicle) are dismounted infantry used to limit these factors? When a recruit is being assigned are factors such as navigational / spacial abilty used to determine where an Infantry recruit will end up? How different are mechanized infantry and dismounted infantry in terms of orienteering (not their ability to orienteer, the practise of). My assumption is that like any broud topic "Navigation" could very easily be broken down into very different sub-disciplines (however, it's just that, an assumption, I really have no idea).

Any feedback on these issues would not only be interesting but also much appreciated.

 

[dangerboy]

I will not get into the Nav questions, but I can tell you for recruits and deciding where they end up it is more or less a numbers game.  If 1st BN is short X number of soldiers while 2 and 3 have the right amount the soldiers are going to 1st. That is it in a simplified state the soldier goes where he is needed, how you did on the various PO checks does not matter as long as you graduated.

 

[X Royal]

As dangerboy stated you will be sent where you are needed. That being said if 1 Bn requires 20 soldiers & 3 Bn needs 10 soldiers the higher you finish may play a part in getting your posting preference. Do your best on your course and summit your posting preference. Quite often postings are made by course groupings. IE: Course 0802 goes to 1 BN as a group.

 

[daftandbarmy]

How different are the navigational tasks of LAV III companies as compared to dismounted Infantry companies. If terrain is thought of like a board of wood with a natural "grain" that are the simplest modes of transportation, to what degree are these different companies able to go against that grain. I read (don't remember where...can't cite) that special forces are so unique in that they specialize in taking unorthodox routes (i.e. through a river, down a cliff, etc.) and was wondering how this applied to the Infantry as a whole.

If LAV III crews have more restrictions with regard to navigational routes (as one would expect with a vehicle) are dismounted infantry used to limit these factors? When a recruit is being assigned are factors such as navigational / spacial abilty used to determine where an Infantry recruit will end up? How different are mechanized infantry and dismounted infantry in terms of orienteering (not their ability to orienteer, the practise of). My assumption is that like any broud topic "Navigation" could very easily be broken down into very different sub-disciplines (however, it's just that, an assumption, I really have no idea).

Any feedback on these issues would not only be interesting but also much appreciated.

The basics of land navigation apply whether or not you're wading through a swamp on foot, driving around it in a LAV or (IMHO) flying over it in a helicopter. If you can navigate well on foot with the good ol' Silva compass, you can navigate anywhere...

 

[PanaEng]

Navigation is navigation is navigation; whether you are in the air, on a boat, on a truck or on foot. Same principles.
However, the faster you go the quicker you can get lost but you can get back on track faster. IMHO there is no such thing as unconventional routes  ;D  - only go/no go, and depends on your mode of transport and time constraints.
Some people are better than others - some are almost natural at it - but all need practise and it has no bearing (hah,  ) on your employability (unless you lack any spatial ability and fail on the courses).

 

[2 Cdo]

Just a quick point reference navigation. Troops must become proficient in using the old stand-by map and compass. Far too many troops rely on their GPS before mastering the use of a compass. GPS devices use batteries. Batteries ALWAYS fail when you most need them. :rage:

I have never had the batteries fail in either my map or my compass! 8)

some are almost natural at it

Very, very few people are "naturals" at navigating. To get good at it involves a lot of practise, and when you're done practising, even more practise!

 

[PanaEng]

Good point on the GPSs.
Also, they do not work as well in a jungle or forest as they do on open terrain.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Very, very few people are "naturals" at navigating. To get good at it involves a lot of practise, and when you're done practising, even more practise!

Very true.  While some may be very proficient with map and compass,  it may also be that many "navigate" so well because they have spent so much time in a specific training area.  At one time, I could find most any location (even by grid reference) in Wainwright even without a map, but I was also proficient with map and compass and (usually) did not get lost outside the boundaries.

 

[PanaEng]

At one time, I could find most any location (even by grid reference) in Wainwright even without a map, but I was also proficient with map and compass and (usually) did not get lost outside the boundaries.

Very true, same with me in Petawawa. That illustrates why it is important to do some training in other areas/towns; it may be more expensive and require more complex coordination but makes it more worthwhile training for real scenarios.

cheers,
Frank

 

[2 Cdo]

Very true, same with me in Petawawa. That illustrates why it is important to do some training in other areas/towns; it may be more expensive and require more complex coordination but makes it more worthwhile training for real scenarios.

cheers,
Frank

At one time I could navigate backwards and forwards in Pet just be knowing the grids! Training in areas other than your "backyard" is perfect for forcing troops to use their nav skills.

 

[PanaEng]

At one time I could navigate backwards and forwards in Pet just be knowing the grids! Shocked

;D  just as easy as going from 5 corners to any point on the Mattawa - blindfolded!  8)

To get back on topic, I would say that navigating in a vehicle is a bit different as things go by faster and you have to orient yourself more often (depending on terrain) - but you have more aids and you can see the ground from a higher perspective. When on foot everyone should keep tabs on location and heading. All that to say that, no, they don't send people to different positions after their training based on navigation ability.

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . . no, they don't send people to different positions after their training based on navigation ability.

However that may be an interesting career management tool.  An orienteering exercise.  Have a posting instruction to a choice job (or course) hidden at a location.  Provide incremental directions to the location through a series of waypoints.  The first one to find the message, gets the posting.

 

[medicineman]

However that may be an interesting career management tool.  An orienteering exercise.  Have a posting instruction to a choice job (or course) hidden at a location.  Provide incremental directions to the location through a series of waypoints.  The first one to find the message, gets the posting.

My career manager wouldn't have ended up as one then - he'd be still lost in the sticks somwehere.  Which leads me to the next point - nobody would find the message as he would have put it in the wrong locale...

MM

 

[Beltlink]

GPS-- never used one -- I  would use it tho for a confirmation tool, or high speed (veh) movement.

It was mentioned -- practise -- practise -- practise.
Yes indeed. But there is no sense practising if you don't get it.
Start in the playpen -- then work outward.
Get it right on foot and in the worse conditions possible.
When you look at a map you must be able to see the terrain in your minds eye just like it really is.
Trees and all.

Your greatest enemy in navigation. The doubt within yourself.
That will get you lost in your own shorts.
BELEIVE YOUR COMPASS. Not your doubt.
When doubt creeps in -- stop right there. And get it righted in your mind before you move another foot.
Even if it means backtracking a mile to confirm. You do that.

Remember, your objective was not to get lost.
Next best tools you have to your compass. The men around you.
Know who is good at what. Pacers, guys with good long range vision in the dark, guys with good memory,Whatever. Everybody is good at something. USE THAT.
Your tail end man whether you have a five man patrol or twenty, use him for a rudder like a ship.
He must know what you are doing.
He will be able to tell you if you went off your bearing. And can stop you.
Always look back. If your patrol is at a weird angle, chances are your drifting.
Keep mother nature in your mind at all times. Watch her, you need her. You are on her turf.
Study trees, grass and even the color of the rocks if you think it will help.
If your compass fails (or your GPS) you will still have your map, pacers and brains, and mother nature will be there for you.. You should be able to continue using all these. BUT YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHERE YOU ARE, in your very footprints at one point or other.
KNOW THE TERRAIN BY JUST LOOKING AT A MAP -- ALL OF IT. ALL OF IT.
Total darkness will bring one thing to you in such a quantity that it will spin you right around.
And that is doubt.
When you know you are getting  good -- go out when there is no moon, and heavy cloud.
When you get that right you are on your way.

Whoever said practise practise practise, and then practise more. Yep -- dead on.
When you can shoot a bearing once -- and move a thousand yards in the dark -- and come out bang on,
then you have things tied together pretty good.
A lot of things have to fall into place for that to happen. (Practise)

All this from an old bugger that got so lost in Wainwright one night , part of me is still out there.
What got me lost?????   I got cocky -- and then I met Mr. Doubt -------------- and I believed him.

PRACTISE,PRACTISE,PRACTISE,PRACTISE,PRACTISE,PRACTISE,PRACTISE,PRACTISE,PRACTISE.

And practise does not mean pulling your map and compass out the day you get a patrol order.

Edit in ---

In ref to hunters.  -- Most - not all hunt in the same area year after year.
They get to know the area well, and it usually gets them what they are after.

Thought I would throw in a few more points.
Learn to use your watch (not digital) for a compass. And how to get rough bearings from that.
Learn the stars, north star and constellations.
Learn where they are, time of year.
Learn to orientate your map.

Take a pathfinders course or any advanced course in navigation you can get.
(Wish I could have got that). Would have loved either or both.
If you are in the Military now and can't get either -- see if you can find a tutor if you are that interested.

 

[GAP]

Has anyone noticed that those that have hunted have less trouble reading the land than those who were never exposed to it.?

This would fall under the Practice, practice mantra....

 

[Blackadder1916]

Has anyone noticed that those that have hunted have less trouble reading the land than those who were never exposed to it.?

While the practise, practise, practise mantra is the best advice for anyone wanting to become proficient in land nav, I don't necessarily equate hunters with being skilled in map and compass.  Perhaps it is too easy to remember one hunting trip I was on back in the early 80s with three other guys I worked with (two sergeants and a captain).  On one morning, we divided into two teams to move to two separate positions (reasonably far apart but mutually supporting in case game was flushed by either group); the two sergeants (both long time hunters with significant field unit experience) were one team and the captain went with me because he hadn't had as much time in the bush as the rest of us.  I estimated that it would take us about 30-40 minutes to trek into the positions from the road, so we left our vehicles and headed off on our separate bearings.  About five minutes (maybe 10 minutes) later, the captain and I heard some shots that came from the direction of the other team.  We were surprised but guessed that the others had chanced on a moose and perhaps got it.  Knowing that they would require our assistance to get it to the road, we back tracked and headed out to our vehicles to wait for them to emerge.  And we waited and waited . . . until well over an hour or two later the two stumbled out onto the road a couple of hundred yards up from the vehicles.  The first thing they did was curse us and asked why we hadn't gone looking for them after they had fired the "three distress signal shots".  Seems they got turned around (lost) as soon as they got into the heavy bush and had been going in circles (probably within a couple hundred metres of the road). 

 

[BDTyre]

You mean, I can't just follow those grid squares everyone keeps talking about? 

I've got a buddy who is so-so at nav, and on one of our nav days he was to take us back to camp.  And we could see camp from the hill we were on.  "I know where we're going, can't I just walk us there?"  "No, use the map and compass."

 

[cdn031]

- Years back I found that navigation from the Hatch of an M113 was a snap - we would laminate up these massive maps - and folding (based on your anticipated route) was an art form so it could be unfolded en route -  but you had to expect your troops inside to be mucho disoriented on dismount.
- The best teacher of contour reading is the mountains - moving up a valley one does not even need a compass; just read the faces of the ranges left & right and you can determine your position.
- Later  I found  the GPS quite handy as a mental check after I had an image of the terrain from the map - I can't comprehend how anyone could "start" with a GPS with out resulting in a neural bleed... but I love the stats on the fly aspect in a veh - KPH, estimated time to objective etc that the civi models offer.

 

[stealthylizard]

First time I learned to trust a compass instead of yourself was when scuba diving.  Everything looks the exact same under water, and most of us ended up for some reason trying to use our instincts after glancing at the compass, and all those people were going in different directions.

Navigation takes practice.  I used a compass everyday when I was a suveyor for seismic exploration and still have problems with accuracy, drifting too far to the left or the right when going to a specific point.  We always had GPS with us, so learned to use it as a back up just to verify how far off I was.  Since then though, I have never used GPS in military yet.