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Ignorant Civies

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Wesley  Down Under said:
No reason?

Goes to show you how much you really do know.

Looks like Canada too is an occupier then, as is Australia, and other countries who have the balls to help out.

Yes I was a proud occupier too, next thing you'll have us all labelled as baby killers  ::) .

EDIT: Like doing it???

Which do you prefer? The peanuts or the corn??


How long do ya think it will be before Canada is the next U.S. state? lol

Or maybe Russia and the U.S. will just Nuke each other before then...who have what, over 5000 active nuclear warheads? woo that'll be fun.... yay for war!
 
Ok, before someone yells at me again lol...

Why not just give me a few reasons why you truely believe you should be fighting for other countries, when they don't want you fighting for them?

I've seen videos, of civilians throwing rocks and shit at U.S. military convoys on youtube....these aren't made up.....they want them out..and they aren't "taliban"....

So what gives?  I'd want someone out of my country if they were in here too running around with guns and bombing my families.....?  So strong reasons would be best....
 
hauger said:
What a great thread....very lurk friendly.

Still, I have a few things to add.

Neil....good on you for debating against so many people on such an emotionally charged subject.  Hell, I'd even go so far as to say some of your comments have a degree of merit.  You are right that a military is not the granter or great protector of rights (can you see the blood start boiling here)...examples are everywhere of the opposite of this (say, Argentina during the "dirty war" for example).  Society as a whole through various social contracts and social institutions provides the rights, and the rule of law protects and manages them...simply speaking.  Having said that, lets look at what a military in a democracy is, shall we;

The military (in our case, the CF) is the physical force behind the government....the "muscle" if you will.  The CF represents the extension of the government to use force to protect or insist itself on a situation.

The government is the representation of the will of society as a whole (not just the vocal minority).  Thus, by extension the CF represents the will of society to induce force to, well, get it's point across.

Society, as such, wishes to protect it's rights/freedoms/sovereignty.  When society has it's sovereignty challenged, be it territorial or otherwise, it has the option to use many different avenues to solve it's issue.  One of the biggest is of course diplomacy.  This is where the CF becomes the protector of your rights, so pay attention.  The CF acts, metaphorically, as the strong man guy standing behind the diplomat...the threat of violence (along with NATO) that adds strength to the diplomats voice (of course along with other strengths such as economics and whatnot).  If diplomacy fails, and Canadian society (through the Government) deems the issue threatening enough to the sovereignty of the nation, it employs the CF...the force.  In essence, the CF is the might that makes the people right. 

This is why, say, Evilistan one day decides to annex Vancouver because, well, it's sick of the way we let our women drive cars.  Ottawa can make all the "women can do what they want" laws it wants, but unless there's a CF that marches in and tells the soldiers of Evilstan to bugger off, those laws do no good.  Take it a step further....Evilstan doesn't invade, but instead finances and encourages a proxy group to effect it's will in Vancouver (hmmm....state-sponsored terrorism/proxy wars).  Sure, you fight the insurgency, but the insurgency keeps coming...eliciting its own law and judgment almost vigilante style against the populous (sort of how the Taliban currently behave).  The government and thus society has lost control over it's own sovereign right to determine the rights of it's citizens....what's it to do?  Write a new constitution?  Whine internationally that it's getting treated "unfairly"?  No, it gets fed up and utilizes it's "muscle" by hitting back against Evilstan.

Because of this usage, the CF is in fact the final line of defense for the rights and privileges of the citizenry.

The ignorance pisses people off for two reasons....they are intrinsically linked to the will of the Government which is supposed to be the will of the people.  When the populous refuses to take a role in understanding it's government and its actions, it makes the members angry at the refusal of that person to self educate about their own society.  For example:

IC: "you're in the army....think you'll ever have to go to Iraq?"
Army guy: "Ummm....Canada isn't in Iraq"

Army guy thinking 'do you ever watch the news?  Do you have any idea what your government is up to? 

Sure it's that citizens prerogative to choose ignorance, but it's still annoying seeing the lack of involvement and willful ignorance.

Further...when that ignorance manifests itself in unsolicited and wholly unsupportable opinion being thrust upon a member, it really gets to some members nerves.  When attempts to educate (yes, educate....people should understand what it is their government is up to) fall on deaf ears and the ignorance continues to be offered, it's highly offensive.  This would be true of any single profession that found itself the target.  I'm sure police for instance get sick of hearing punk kids calling them "pigs"...an unsolicited, ignorant view directed towards the police.  This thread is a manifestation of exactly the same thing.

I hope all this made sense.


Sorry for my 5 posts in a row....

But....

I'm just glad I live in Canada, and not somewhere Canada is occupying... I'm glad I'm that fortunate.....and I'm glad you're fighting for us... I'm just curious, how they feel about it I guess...how would you feel if you were them....do you ever think about that sort of thing?
 
It sounds to me you are a 23 year old punk.

OK. Personal attacks (by anybody) stop now, or this thread will be locked.

The thread title has bothered me also "uninformed" may have been better.

Army.ca Staff
 
ryananderson said:
Who do you think pays your wages anyway?  Taxpayers?

I pay taxes as well. Probably more than some other employed people, so you can shut that one down right now.

ryananderson said:
I've seen videos, of civilians throwing rocks and crap at U.S. military convoys on youtube....these aren't made up.....they want them out..and they aren't "taliban"....

And are they doing this to the Canadian troops?

I agree, maybe the thread title should be changed to "Civilians who don't understand what we do" but you can stop anytime with the anti-American rhetoric and comparing us to the U.S. Military.  I don't care who you've spoken to and what they've told you.
 
Well you didn't read my previous posts obviously and are just commenting on this one so to re-iterate...I was saying I am more in favour of us being there than the U.S. because we are more there to help because I think / thought that the U.S. is more there to just ....be there..and to be involved in "war". 

meh...  I'm just stupid.  ::)
 
ryananderson said:
Why not just give me a few reasons why you truely believe you should be fighting for other countries, when they don't want you fighting for them?

President Karzai (President of Afghanistan) has said:
(1) "Please convey to your people [in Canada] the immense gratitude from the people of Afghanistan, for contributing in money and soldiers and choosing Afghanistan to be the biggest recipient of Canadian help."
(2) "If the greatness of life is measured in deeds done for others, then Canada's sons and daughters who have made the ultimate sacrifice in Afghanistan stand among the greatest of their generation."
(3) "In Afghanistan, you [Canadians] are not only serving the cause of security for the international community, and your country, you are also helping one of the most oppressed societies in the world and the little children that they have. Thank you."

Does that sound like Canadian troops are an unwelcome entity in Afghanistan?

ryananderson said:
I've seen videos, of civilians throwing rocks and crap at U.S. military convoys on youtube....these aren't made up.....they want them out..and they aren't "taliban"....

How do you know if they are or are not Taliban? Are they supposed to be wearing a scarlett T so you can identify them?

ryananderson said:
So what gives?  I'd want someone out of my country if they were in here too running around with guns and bombing my families.....?  So strong reasons would be best....

Canadians are bombing Afghan families? I really hope you can you back that up with evidence because this is a pretty serious and dangerous statement.

"Running around with guns"? That's a huge oversimplification (and distorted view) of the military and their mission overseas, don't you think?   ???

 
PMedMoe said:
Can you back up that statement?

And this has to do with the military how?

Oh, so maybe you missed this post, ryananderson.  I'm not just here spouting off comments.  I  want you to prove your statements.  You're the one who has derailed this topic, not me.

ryananderson said:
meh...  I'm just stupid.  ::)

You said it, not me.
 
PMedMoe said:
Oh, so maybe you missed this post, ryananderson.  I'm not just here spouting off comments.  I  want you to prove your statements.  You're the one who has derailed this topic, not me.

You said it, not me.

What statement are you referring to?
 
muskrat89 said:
OK. Personal attacks (by anybody) stop now, or this thread will be locked.

The thread title has bothered me also "uninformed" may have been better.

Army.ca Staff

I would suggest if you want to lock this that you look at giving Ryan a warning first...he is obviousrly ilinformed and just trying to push everybody's buttons
 
I’m getting a bit tired of this ill-named thread.

Yes, indeed, there are some people, quite a few I would guess, who know little and care less about the military; there are also people, not too many I think, with a very clear and distinct anti-military bias. But, in my experience – more than 35 years in the regular army including all of the ‘60s, ‘70s, and ‘80s – the military was and is no less understood or supported than, say, the police.

Ask nurses and doctors if they are misunderstood. Some of them have hair-raising stories about ignorant patients. Ask school teachers about ignorant parents. Ask lawyers or bankers about ignorant clients. There’s nothing unique about “ignorant civies” except for the fact that they are in (thankfully) pretty short supply.

As those who bother to read what I post can attest I am no great fan of my fellow men (and women), especially not of my fellow Canadians. I routinely decry their lack of (useful) education (there: another ignorant guy sounding off about teachers and educrats) and their self-centred “greed and envy.” I am neither surprised nor distressed when too many of them confuse our and our allies’ mission in Afghanistan with another allied mission in Iraq. In fact my distress is with politicians, academics and the commentariat who either fail to explain who is doing what to whom where or, worse, intentionally cloud the issue for their own partisan purposes.

But, you know, some misconceptions have pretty long histories. When I first joined many (most single) soldiers never completed an income tax return; quite a few serving military people did not understand that we did, indeed, pay taxes and they went home and told their mates from high school! It’s no wonder so very many civilians still think we you don’t pay taxes; we (serving soldiers) told ‘em that forty or fifty years ago. As the traffic on Milnet.ca demonstrates, again and again, many Canadians, including many Canadian sailors and soldiers, get most of their news and views from US media; it’s not surprising that some, military and civilian alike, often believe that what’s happening in the US is also happening here. 

As for the (most young and inexperienced, I think) military people who complain long and loud about ”ignorant civies”: suck it up, buttercup; if you can’t take a joke  you shouldn’t have joined. When ”we’re needin’ ‘em, not feedin’ ‘em” again (an old insult hurled at my generation by those who joined ten or twenty years earlier) you can bet that all those ”ignorant civies” will line up at the recruiting offices and they (the volunteer or active force) will fight and die alongside their permanent force colleagues, just as bravely, just as loyally.
 
If you have a problem I would suggest you pm the mod as you are writing your way to be banned and it is not a case of conforming to views...you have made some broad statements with no back up and continue to do so
 
E.R. Campbell said:
I’m getting a bit tired of this ill-named thread.

Yes, indeed, there are some people, quite a few I would guess, who know little and care less about the military; there are also people, not too many I think, with a very clear and distinct anti-military bias. But, in my experience – more than 35 years in the regular army including all of the ‘60s, ‘70s, and ‘80s – the military was and is no less understood or supported than, say, the police.

Ask nurses and doctors if they are misunderstood. Some of them have hair-raising stories about ignorant patients. Ask school teachers about ignorant parents. Ask lawyers or bankers about ignorant clients. There’s nothing unique about “ignorant civies” except for the fact that they are in (thankfully) pretty short supply.

As those who bother to read what I post can attest I am no great fan of my fellow men (and women), especially not of my fellow Canadians. I routinely decry their lack of (useful) education (there: another ignorant guy sounding off about teachers and educrats) and their self-centred “greed and envy.” I am neither surprised nor distressed when too many of them confuse our and our allies’ mission in Afghanistan with another allied mission in Iraq. In fact my distress is with politicians, academics and the commentariat who either fail to explain who is doing what to whom where or, worse, intentionally cloud the issue for their own partisan purposes.

But, you know, some misconceptions have pretty long histories. When I first joined many (most single) soldiers never completed an income tax return; quite a few serving military people did not understand that we did, indeed, pay taxes and they went home and told their mates from high school! It’s no wonder so very many civilians still think we you don’t pay taxes; we (serving soldiers) told ‘em that forty or fifty years ago. As the traffic on Milnet.ca demonstrates, again and again, many Canadians, including many Canadian sailors and soldiers, get most of their news and views from US media; it’s not surprising that some, military and civilian alike, often believe that what’s happening in the US is also happening here.   

As for the (most young and inexperienced, I think) military people who complain long and loud about ”ignorant civies”: suck it up, buttercup; if you can’t take a joke  you shouldn’t have joined. When ”we’re needin’ ‘em, not feedin’ ‘em” again (an old insult hurled at my generation by those who joined ten or twenty years earlier) you can bet that all those ”ignorant civies” will line up at the recruiting offices and they (the volunteer or active force) will fight and die alongside their permanent force colleagues, just as bravely, just as loyally.

Man that is just the post I was waiting for....thank you.
 
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