Hybrid electric/"stealth" snowmobiles
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By "they," you actually mean the article's author, Spencer Ackerman: "Danger Room's senior reporter, based out of Washington, D.C., covering weapons of doom and the strategies they're used to implement."Kalatzi said:
Pick one:
a) :brickwall:
b) :
c) :boring:
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Not sure how this happened, but this reply ended up being posted in the "What is Canada Buying? thread:
Playing the devil's advocate for a second here:
US SOF teams inserted into the Sha-i-kot valley up to a week prior to OP ANACONDA, usually infiltrating via 4X4 ATV's. The high mountain passes were coverd in snow, and on least one occasion, the team discovered curious Taliban fighters following the tracks the ATV's left (although they never actually seemed to have followed through with the tracking). The SOF ATV's were not described in great detail (this information is from the book "Not a good day to die), but the inference is they were modified for SOF use. It seems probable that part of the modification would be to install larger or more efficient sound supressing mufflers along with racks to carry more gear, and possibly mor powerful engines. Certainly there is no indication in the book that the Taliban were aware of the SOF entry into the Sha-i-kot valey, so the sound of the ATV engine was muffled to the point no one was able to hear it.
Now hybrid electric is flavour of the month, and anyone who has been around a Toyota Prius moving away from a stop sign can attest to the total lack of sound as the electric motor starts the car in motion, so having a silent snowmobile seems to be one way to combine the lessons of over smow mobility and stealth in a package that is more familier to most Canadians.
</advocate>
OTOH, mobility and logistics are pretty closely related, and if I were in charge of things, I would be investigating TDI diesel engines for the entire vehicle fleet since the enhanced reliability and fuel economy would have a much greater impact on CF operations. (A VW Jetta with a TDI engine can claim 40+ MPG without the extra weight or complexity of electric engines, battery packs and control electronics. Larger and heavier trucks and AFV's would not get 40 mpg, but even a 5-10% improvement would have a dramatic impact on costs, or even the number of trucks needed to carry fuel).
Moving quietly with a TDI engine would simply involve putting sound insulation around the engine compartment and installing a high efficiency muffler, both probably simpler and cheaper than a hybrid showmobile.
Playing the devil's advocate for a second here:
US SOF teams inserted into the Sha-i-kot valley up to a week prior to OP ANACONDA, usually infiltrating via 4X4 ATV's. The high mountain passes were coverd in snow, and on least one occasion, the team discovered curious Taliban fighters following the tracks the ATV's left (although they never actually seemed to have followed through with the tracking). The SOF ATV's were not described in great detail (this information is from the book "Not a good day to die), but the inference is they were modified for SOF use. It seems probable that part of the modification would be to install larger or more efficient sound supressing mufflers along with racks to carry more gear, and possibly mor powerful engines. Certainly there is no indication in the book that the Taliban were aware of the SOF entry into the Sha-i-kot valey, so the sound of the ATV engine was muffled to the point no one was able to hear it.
Now hybrid electric is flavour of the month, and anyone who has been around a Toyota Prius moving away from a stop sign can attest to the total lack of sound as the electric motor starts the car in motion, so having a silent snowmobile seems to be one way to combine the lessons of over smow mobility and stealth in a package that is more familier to most Canadians.
</advocate>
OTOH, mobility and logistics are pretty closely related, and if I were in charge of things, I would be investigating TDI diesel engines for the entire vehicle fleet since the enhanced reliability and fuel economy would have a much greater impact on CF operations. (A VW Jetta with a TDI engine can claim 40+ MPG without the extra weight or complexity of electric engines, battery packs and control electronics. Larger and heavier trucks and AFV's would not get 40 mpg, but even a 5-10% improvement would have a dramatic impact on costs, or even the number of trucks needed to carry fuel).
Moving quietly with a TDI engine would simply involve putting sound insulation around the engine compartment and installing a high efficiency muffler, both probably simpler and cheaper than a hybrid showmobile.
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Thucydides said:
BTE '04 anyone? What did that cold snap cost in fuel I wonder?
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That could work. Hybrid vehicle, gas for distance, and when using gas have solar panels exposed. When you want to go stealth you hit the battery, cover the panels, move in quietly.cupper said:
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GAP said:forever picking the nits.....details....details.....you do realize it doesn't matter from mid-September to mid-April cause it's dark....they CAN'T SEE YOU!!!
ah....solved that little gem for them......
GAP, quick, let's go out and patent "Temporally-Variable Stealth Technology"!!! ;D
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Exactly. It wouldn't have to be TDI, although that might suit the military better, but an even less complicated and less expensive solution would be simply to modify existing snowmobile engines which are getting pretty good these days.Thucydides said:
This hybrid idea is ridiculous to the extreme.
OldSolduer
Army.ca Relic
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DirtyDog said:
And the competition for the extension cord should be entertaining.....
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To be fair they can be used below the circle, Canada does tend to be covered by snow at least once a year.Good2Golf said:
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Seriously where does this stuff come from? I'm guessing half a million on stealth snowmobiles (we had em up north...they were called snowshoes and sleds) fits perfectly into this cost cutting stuff.
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I'm starting to think a snowmobile is a waste of time altogether. Petawawa and other bases are being overrun with ATV's and vehicles like Gators are/were used in Afghanistan. ATV's can be used year round, and having one light vehicle fleet rather than two or multiple types simplifies logistics greatly.
The Argo ATV is probably the best vehicle to fit this category; it has ultra low ground pressure, is amphibious, uses skid steering so you can throw a set of tracks over the wheels for extreme conditions and (for Technoviking) is large enough to carry a C-16 and a decent amount of ammunition. There is no reason you can't include a trailer as well for the other stuff (besides a C-16) that you might want to take. Use a small diesel engine with an efficient muffler and a soundproof engine enclosure and you are 100% there.
The Argo ATV is probably the best vehicle to fit this category; it has ultra low ground pressure, is amphibious, uses skid steering so you can throw a set of tracks over the wheels for extreme conditions and (for Technoviking) is large enough to carry a C-16 and a decent amount of ammunition. There is no reason you can't include a trailer as well for the other stuff (besides a C-16
) that you might want to take. Use a small diesel engine with an efficient muffler and a soundproof engine enclosure and you are 100% there.
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I'll have to disagree here.Thucydides said:I'm starting to think a snowmobile is a waste of time altogether. Petawawa and other bases are being overrun with ATV's and vehicles like Gators are/were used in Afghanistan. ATV's can be used year round, and having one light vehicle fleet rather than two or multiple types simplifies logistics greatly.
The Argo ATV is probably the best vehicle to fit this category; it has ultra low ground pressure, is amphibious, uses skid steering so you can throw a set of tracks over the wheels for extreme conditions and (for Technoviking) is large enough to carry a C-16 and a decent amount of ammunition. There is no reason you can't include a trailer as well for the other stuff (besides a C-16
An Argo will never do things a snowmobile can do. Although Argo's are decent vehicles they sure lack in speed. If used in a role where stealth is a factor & things go to crap, speed could be your only option to safety.
As for a diesel motor these tend to suffer in extreme cold conditions when they are allowed to become cold before starting up.
Same would apply to an electric snowmobile. For any amount of range, speed & carrying capacity would have to be greatly sacrificed. Refueling would also pose problems with electrics. A gas engine can haul extra fuel or could be resupplied by caches or airdrops. Not a good option for electrics.
Atv's also fall far short of snowmobiles on performance on snow & ice.
If the use is for Arctic conditions with combat operations in mind a snowmobile fits the needs best. As already stated to reduce noise extra insulation & better mufflers on existing engines would be the best & most cost efficient option.
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Another thing to consider would be weather conditions.
During a windy situation in the Arctic other sounds would be severely masked.
During extremely still weather the sound of a completely quite vehicle(engine noise) would be nullified by the noise created by it's ski's, tracks or wheels moving over an extremely cold surface.
During a windy situation in the Arctic other sounds would be severely masked.
During extremely still weather the sound of a completely quite vehicle(engine noise) would be nullified by the noise created by it's ski's, tracks or wheels moving over an extremely cold surface.
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Stipulated, but I am thinking of the bigger logistics picture:
1. All other vehicles and almost all generators now use diesel engines and JP-8 fuel.
2. We are currently supporting dozens of "mini fleets" of specialized vehicles, which entails huge logistics and maintainance bills. Why add to the puzzle with more mini fleets? (On a meta level we really need to get our s**t together with trucks, LAVs, AFV's etc. before even looking at the ultra light fleet)
3. While an ARGO isn't very fast, snowmobiles are not very amphibious. Throw in tracks fitted over the wheels for extreme conditions (deep sand, snow, swamps etc.) and with the ARGO you have one vehicle that can operate in virtually every sort of terrain we are likely to encounter. The only vehicle that comes even close is the BV-206 and various related vehicles (Viking and ST Kinetics Bronco), which are much larger and more complex.
If we are going to spend a boatload of money for improbable vehicles like a Toyota Prius on tracks, then we might as well design an ARGO like ATV which addresses your concerns; higher top speed, Diesel engine with preheater and why not make it an 8X8 to carry a section's worth of kit and ammunition or 2 stretcher patients.
1. All other vehicles and almost all generators now use diesel engines and JP-8 fuel.
2. We are currently supporting dozens of "mini fleets" of specialized vehicles, which entails huge logistics and maintainance bills. Why add to the puzzle with more mini fleets? (On a meta level we really need to get our s**t together with trucks, LAVs, AFV's etc. before even looking at the ultra light fleet)
3. While an ARGO isn't very fast, snowmobiles are not very amphibious. Throw in tracks fitted over the wheels for extreme conditions (deep sand, snow, swamps etc.) and with the ARGO you have one vehicle that can operate in virtually every sort of terrain we are likely to encounter. The only vehicle that comes even close is the BV-206 and various related vehicles (Viking and ST Kinetics Bronco), which are much larger and more complex.
If we are going to spend a boatload of money for improbable vehicles like a Toyota Prius on tracks, then we might as well design an ARGO like ATV which addresses your concerns; higher top speed, Diesel engine with preheater and why not make it an 8X8 to carry a section's worth of kit and ammunition or 2 stretcher patients.
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Although I agree that logistics are very important but when the intended mission is "military operations in Canada's Arctic" function of the equipment has to take overall precedence. It is not an environment where compromise is a viable option.
The Agro for combat operations in the Arctic would be a disaster. On top of lack of speed, amphibious operations with an Argo would also be not advisable & also not very likely needed. If you think their slow on land you never been in one when it's swimming. They do not handle rough water & entry and exit places have to be well chosen. Staying dry in them under anything but ideal conditions while swimming would be next to impossible.
The Agro for combat operations in the Arctic would be a disaster. On top of lack of speed, amphibious operations with an Argo would also be not advisable & also not very likely needed. If you think their slow on land you never been in one when it's swimming. They do not handle rough water & entry and exit places have to be well chosen. Staying dry in them under anything but ideal conditions while swimming would be next to impossible.
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To me the big question is why the thrust for "covert military operations in Canada's Arctic" when so little has been done to expand our conventional operational capabilities in the Canadian Arctic?
The logistical tail is quite long there and for any prolonged response other than on a small scale much infrastructure is needed.
Manned patrol bases (manned on a rotational basis) capable of handling greatly increased staffing quickly would be a far better method of protecting our sovereign territory than this covert operations scheme.
Rations, fuel and other required equipment and supplies could be pre-positioned to somewhat limit the logistical needs required for increased activities.
But I'm sure that's just a pipe dream as that would cost more money & staffing than the covert operations scheme. :facepalm:
The logistical tail is quite long there and for any prolonged response other than on a small scale much infrastructure is needed.
Manned patrol bases (manned on a rotational basis) capable of handling greatly increased staffing quickly would be a far better method of protecting our sovereign territory than this covert operations scheme.
Rations, fuel and other required equipment and supplies could be pre-positioned to somewhat limit the logistical needs required for increased activities.
But I'm sure that's just a pipe dream as that would cost more money & staffing than the covert operations scheme. :facepalm:
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