How A Regiment SAVED Itself!!!!!!!!

[Scoobie Newbie]

With these tasf forces now there is no unit cohesion.  The CLS also said they are thinking about reorging the BN's there just not sure which way to go ie 2 LAV coy's and 1 LUV Coy or 1 Lav Coy, 1 mountain ops coy, 1 light coy this way he thinks there will be a better way to plu and play (or so I gather).

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

It seems to me that we have been needing three sub-units to actually field two for deployments (across all MOCs).  If we re-org and "plug and play" for the six month period leading up to deployment then I figure that we do achieve some cohesion.  It isn't like the TF meets for the first time at the airhead.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Well I wouldn't call 2 weeks in Wainwright cohesion (re: B Coy 2 VP and 1VP).

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Two weeks is short.  That being said, the sub-units should have had since at least APS to get internal cohesion. 

A previous CLS asked the rhetorical question if it was better to have a bunch of understrength companies or a smaller number of up to strength companies.  One way to avoid both is to focus available manpower into core occupations. 

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Aluminum Pot Syndrome???
The coy in 2VP had unit cohesion amoungst themselves.

 

[MJP]

APS= Annual posting season

 

[ArmyRick]

I am a TOW and Mortar dude, so I found this thread interesting.  My view is this. I hope that our infantry only fight light disorganized enemy such as Al Queda unless the army garuantees that the arty, armoured, etc will support us in the time of need.

I think it is foolish to concentrate all our TOW assetts in one unit. LdSH Association have any pull in this decision?

I know lots of arty guys who treat the 81mm mortar as an unwanted bastard step child. Too bad, its a very effective peice of kit (Hey arty try man packing an LG1 or M777 through the hills of Afghanistan). Not to mention the mortar is very fast too bring into action.

 

[GO!!!]

ArmyRick,

RUMINT has it that the only reason that the Gunners were givent the mortars at all was to keep them around. As the artillery has limited operational use in the current operational context, they needed a task that could justify their jobs until we are in situation to require the guns again. (Which is not an entirely bad thing - it just means we never, ever train together, so much for interoperability)

A similar reason was given for the TOW company, which, along with the Recce Sqn, is the only really useful part of the Strats, given the poor state of the Leos, and the as yet undelivered MGS. I am personally of the opinion that the army as a whole is trying to keep the infantry from consolidating power and knowledge by doing away with the idea of organic combat support completely, and protecting the kingdoms of units and capabilities that have not been used since WW2.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

GO I wish you were there when the commander of the army was visiting.

 

[rampage800]

GO

Not sure I agree with you and your source that we're just keeping the Arty around till WWIII breaks out. What other all weather fire support(FS) is out there ? Not CAS, no AH, most of the places we operate are far out of the rge of naval FS so then what. US Gunners are firing weekly in Afghanistan in support of conventional, SOF, ANA, etc,etc operations doing their job so define "limited"( who needs all weather FS anyhow, maybe the Commanders will only attack on nice days). As for interoperability your kidding right ? One of the batteries (C, I think they are actually affiliated with your unit GO) has their FOO Parties in Edmonton more than they do in Shilo doing exercises, JXAC, cas-para, etc etc. Are you suggesting they're just wasting their time by going up there cause they're not learning how to operate within the CoyGps or maybe their not showing up there at all and just going boozing in Edm then lying about what they did when they got back. As for ArmyRicks comments I agree the mortar is quick to bring in and out of action (and GO's battery uses them all the time)the problem with humping them is keeping them adequetly supplied with ammo for any kind of sustained operation due to the high rate of fire required.  As for humping LG-1's or triple 7's I don't think a football team could do that but then they don't have to be within 5.5 km's to support either so,....plus what would you rather have prepping the objective, 81's or 155 ? Anyhow I'm not trying to sound snooty here or hi-jack this thread, I do believe the Bn's should have their own integral FS besides 60's but as of now and probably for a long, long time they won't so instead of saying units are assigned tasks for trade preservation or the next Great War lets try working together on this one.

 

[GO!!!]

rampage,

I have'nt seen our gunners since the spring. I'm not sure who they are "operating in support of" but it sure is'nt us.

A few of them show up for cas - para sometimes, but that's about it.  The last ex we did with them, their battery would not let them have any ammo, so (as per) FS was notional.

You can link units, affiliate them, attach them, send them to the same city as other units etc. But if they don't train with us, and they can't be deployed in the same manner (parachute) then they are just that - notional. There are only three ways to deliver a mortar pl; helo (squadron of 146s, Parachute (one herc, complete with palletized ammo) and truck. We don't have enough helos, and the truck thing is out if we are jumping in anyways, so if you are not there, jumping the tubes and baseplates, with full kit (the horror!) no, you are not an effective attachment.

The mortars were something that the infantry did, and did well, there was no good reason to take them away. We have not had FS since, and now the gunners are down to 6 mortarmen and a FOO party. Yup. that was a great idea.

As for the claims that US gunners are firing in support of missions daily/weekly - SO? The US is also sending carrier groups to the strait of Hormuz and training dolphins to find russian subs - we are not capable of any type of offensive action with our government in it's current state of affairs. The Guns may come in handy a few years from now, when the world picture changes, but until then, give the mortars back!

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

GO there across the road from us and we don't train with them.  P.S.  your preaching to the choir on this one.

 

[vonGarvin]

As for humping LG-1's or triple 7's I don't think a football team could do that but then they don't have to be within 5.5 km's to support either so,....plus what would you rather have prepping the objective, 81's or 155 ? Anyhow I'm not trying to sound snooty here or hi-jack this thread, I do believe the Bn's should have their own integral FS besides 60's but as of now and probably for a long, long time they won't so instead of saying units are assigned tasks for trade preservation or the next Great War lets try working together on this one.

Well, I believe that the Carolina Panthers are now available to try to hump the triple 7's.
Now, to be within 5.5 km that's ok.  Longest ranged weapon in the infantry (when it was in the infantry).  Right now, the 60 is the longest ranged weapon, at 2.8 km.  (charge 4, with bipod, of course). Heck, that 5.5km (really, it's closer to 5.6 with C70A2 I believe) means that a mortar can cover over 100 square kms.  Fairly large area.
As for prepping the objective, I don't think it's an "either/or" for preference, but rather "both".  So, 81 AND 155s.  155s to do the destruction stuff, and the 81s to do the suppression stuff (superimposed, of course), allowing "us" to get closer while the bombs keep dropping.  But, if it's either/or, well, I hate to say it, but it depends on the situation.  The 155 causes awful physical damage to the bad guys, but the 81's higher rate of fire means more "booms" at the other end: affects the enemy's psychologically, which is, of course, harder to quantify.  And, of course the 81 can get them baddies behind cover (though the 155 can too, but first the shell goes into sub-orbital mode before plunging back to earth).  So, the long answer to the non-asked question is: they are similar but they are not the same: no duplication, but rather (now, hold on to your hats) "Synergistic"
In other words: gimme back me friggin' mortars ;-)

 

[goatrodeo]

Hey I just joined this site so I can make a reply to GO!!! First off,what do ya mean we've only been to the field once in five years? Can you say APS? Where do you get 6 mortarmen and one foo party? You should really do the research before you make any claims like that. Now I'm not trying to sound like I'm a God of War,GO!! apparently is ,but I would like to say a couple of things. First,I think GO!! is feeling underappreciated so let us all say thanks GO!!! for existing! I'm sure there would be no military if it wasn't for you! You are the best there ever was and the best there ever will be! Feel better now? Secondly have you ever taken into consideration that we do most of our exercises here in Shilo? You know,since there is a base out here,it is probably cheaper for us to do training here than to always go to Wainwright. Why is it that the grunts are always angry with all the other trades? I will give you some credit, your job is hard,I will admit that we need the Infantry and if you guys want to do it my hats off to ya! If you like to think we get off easy you're way off! Stop complaining about the whole mortar thing! Do what we have done, accept it and soldier on! If you think we are not capable, instead of talking smack about us why don't ya help us out? News flash, we are all on the same team!! I was a mortarman on OP APOLLO and I ran into a soldier from 101st. He asked what my trade was,when I told him Artillery,he wanted to shake my hand. He said,"Whenever we bite off more than we can chew,the arty will bail us out!" Now since he has seen more combat than most of us I think he knew what he was talking about. No trade can fight by itself,think about it.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Hey clowny why don't YOU climb down from your high horse for a minute.  GO never said the arty weren't capable of doing the mortar job he just wants imminent support controlled by the CO and not have to ask higher for arty.  If you don't think for a second that BG/ Division etc prioritizes things when it comes to ARTY/TOW/ENG assets then maybe you should give your head a shake.  The chance that support provided by the above won't be there is minimal however that said there still is a chance it will be tasked out elsewhere when GO or I or any other Grunt needs it (TOW excluded).  How many other armies don't have imminent mortar support within their own infantry? 

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Oh and P.S. why don't you list some of your precious experience so we know who we are talking with noobie.

 

[GO!!!]

Goat Rodeo,

Welcome to army.ca.

If you had read most of my posts, you would see the contradictions between what I'm saying and what you ranted about, but don't let the truth get in the way of a good vent.

I'll spell it out for you with spaces (hint hint)

I want the mortars back because;

1) In the para role, they are our only organic FS, FULL STOP. The guns are fine and dandy, but we have not had marked success with either the artillery prioritising us in a manner we appreciate, or responding in a timely manner. This is more the fault of the multiple layers of Command and Control than any single gun bunny.

2) We have not done an exercise with live mortars since we lost the role - what, 5 years ago? Pracitcing in a vacuum is pointless - for all of us - so drop the vicitm mentality.

3) A FOO party and six gunners - that's what I said sunshine - and they only jump bare-ass too, so until they are prepared to start carrying real loads, tubes, base plates and radios, they are just as notional as if they did not exist at all.

4) There is no possible way for a light mortar pl to be delivered in Canada right now, other than helo, truck and parachute. Seeing as trucks are not the best in A-stan, we don't have a helo capability, and you are'nt jump qulaified, you are a great addition to the artillery officers resumes, and that's about it. So either get some gunners on the jump courses and move them to edmonton so that they can train with their unit (us) or give the tubes back, and let the gunners have the artillery. 

As for some guy from the 101st shaking your hand - SO? I got their regimental coin from their CO, right before I met the Prime Minister, Tommy Franks, Rangers, Navy SEALS and SF operators and shook their hands too - it must have validated my training and existence - right?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

GO what are you going on about? 

You have the 60's still don't you? :

 

[goatrodeo]

Well GO!! I would like to give you an apology,I misunderstood what you were saying. And the last time we jumped in Edmonton,even though it was cas,we jumped full equipment and trialled the new jump bag for the mortar. I wasn't trying to say that I'm big $#@% just because I shook hands with a yank. I was just trying to get the point across that they appreciate all their assets. As for CFL, you haven't done an ex with us since you've been here? Well first off my Bty doesn't support you. So if you have aproblem with joint exercises, don't assume it's my Bty. Second,it's not my fault that it's not happening. It has to do with decisions at a higher level, but you probably know that already,right? I may be a noobie on this sight,by the way it's spelled newbie,but that doesn't mean I'm a newbie in the military. I'd tell ya how long I've been in but I'm sure that even if I've been in for 100yrs you would have something to say about it. I'm also sure that GO!! can handle himself,he proved it with his message,and he handled it a lot better than you. GO!!! gets 10 pnts,CFL -10.

 

[goatrodeo]

P.S. GO!! The last ex we fired live with you was light fighter,that wasn't five years ago. As for Jumpers, my Bty,gets priority when the regiment gets openings. We don't get many so it will take some time. Just to emphasise,this is for GO!! not CFL again this is for GO!! Go have a coffee CFL.