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Future of ATHENA: Manning issues & LAV III upgrades

The Bread Guy

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I've highlighted a few tidbits in this one, shared with the usual disclaimer...

Canada bolsters Afghan mission
Casualty ID'd. Top soldier promises more infantry troops, upgraded vehicles
Renata D'Aliesio, CanWest-Global, 1 Oct 06
http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=a3ebdae3-5f8e-4af0-8004-31fdc406c6c2&k=67716

In the face of increasing threats from explosive devices in Afghanistan, the Canadian military is working on upgrades for its mainstay armoured vehicle, Canada's top soldier told troops yesterday.

A host of changes are being designed to boost the LAV III's ability to withstand ambushes and improvised explosive devices (IEDs), General Rick Hillier said during an afternoon stop to speak with troops stationed on Ma'sum Ghar Mountain in Panjwaii District of southern Afghanistan.

He also told soldiers that a plan has been hatched to significantly bolster the number of combat troops in Canada.  The plan would see more recruits being trained as infantry soldiers, even if they requested other assignments..

But an immediate concern to the troops in Afghanistan are the IEDs and their effect on the light-armoured vehicles.

"We've got an entire series of upgrades dealing with the LAVs," Hillier said.

Those upgrades cannot be revealed under operational security rules for journalists embedded with the military.

"We have a real weight restriction here about what we can put on," he said. "It's a good vehicle, we are going to (put in) place some lessons we have learned here, and improve it even further."

IEDs are posing a great risk to Canadian troops working in Kandahar province. Most of the anti-tank mines and other explosive contraptions have been placed on dirt roads used by military vehicles and local Afghans.

They're also turning up on new roads bulldozed through farm fields during Operation Medusa, a major two-week offensive against the Taliban in Panjwaii and Zahri districts in early September.

(. . . .)

Canada is committing to boost its numbers to 2,500 from 2,200 troops, and to send additional equipment. Hillier said yesterday Leopard tanks are expected to arrive in the next few days, while arrangements are being made to deploy another 21 Nyalas: four-wheel-drive jeeps designed to withstand anti-tank mine blasts.

Beyond the equipment, NATO has stressed it needs more boots on the ground - infantry soldiers.

Canada has committed to staying in Afghanistan until 2009. With its infantry already stretched thin, Hillier said a plan is afoot to boost the number of combat soldiers.

"Back home in the army, across the Canadian Forces, we are going to be rerolling a whole bunch of folks in the training pipeline now into the infantry," Hillier said.  "They might be signed up to be an armoured soldier or an artillery man or woman, but for the next two years or so we are going to turn them into infantry men or women."

Edit - last Hillier quote added from a longer version of this story that's not online yet
 
Is making new recruits into infanteers going to work? Especially for those that never signed up to be an infanteer? I fear this plan of the CDS will only backfire....
 
Just as long as we don't have Luftwaffe Field Battalions....


But, in all seriousness, yes, infantrymen, but....

For all the LAVs and other vehicles, technicians.  And spare parts!
 
The "everyone's an infanteer" actually drew my eye more than the LAV mod stuffs (although +1 on VG's call)....

The discussion presumes, of course, that the reporter paraphrased the CDS properly (although if there's a verbatim quote in quotation marks, most reporters are pretty scrupulous about getting the words right).

Does this mean more of, say, a USMC approach - all combat arms will be infanteers first and foremost?  My understanding of the Marines, though, is that they all train as riflemen/women, but not EVERYONE ends up in a rifle squad/platoon to start.  

Or is it going to be more like the US Army, where a lotta non-riflemen have had to pick up rifleman skills PDQ because of the wars they face?

Lotsa questions.......
 
To me, it sounds like they will "rebadge" non-trained armour and arty brand new privates to infantry. Not much for the combat engineers I think, due to the situation in A-stan (IEDs, mines, UXOs). This could mean a lot of VRs though...
 
I guess we will see soon how they plan to do this.  I just fear that there isn't enough instructors to go around right now.  We already have two BIQs running in Edmonton itself in the upcoming months due to the fact that wainwright seem to be busy due to CMTC and a number of instructors that are on waivers and can't go down there to teach.  This is on top of units trying to run PCF cycles and send NCOs on other career courses. 
 
I was never in the Regs, so I need enlightenment:  is there any clause that says once you sign the line to get into MOS x, you can STILL get moved to MOS y if needed?

Edit - thinknig too American ;) - changed MOC to MOS
 
"We've got an entire series of upgrades dealing with the LAVs," Hillier said.

Those upgrades cannot be revealed under operational security rules for journalists embedded with the military.


I wonder if these are the "hover LAVs" that a not-to-be-named General once apparently alluded to during a speech at RMC?


:dontpanic:
 
My guess is that these are all symptoms of an army that is preparing for more intensive ops in theatre and perhaps another mission somewhere else.  I wonder if the other services [navy, air force] have been asked to help out somehow?*


*edit- not to go infantry, but perhaps train to assume some domestic role of the army in order to free up troops. 
 
 
The US army has been doing "blue to green" for a bit now (mind you, they're taking in people being made redundant in the blue trades):

http://www.goarmy.com/btg/index.jsp

"Operation Blue to Green will allow you to continue to serve your country, to maintain the benefits of military service, and to expand your horizons by gaining new training and trying new things."  An understatement, to be sure.... ;D
 
Is making new recruits into infanteers going to work? Especially for those that never signed up to be an infanteer? I fear this plan of the CDS will only backfire....

+1  If this is indeed the case, and we don't have the full context of the CDS' remarks or any indication whatsoever of a "plan", this is a disaster in the making.  As delavan pointed out, the number of VRs, redresses and human rights complaints could be epic.  It smacks of the US Army's "stop loss" programmes, forced activations, forced extensions to retirement dates, and forced re-musters.  Are we really there yet, especially given that the strains on the training system haven't been resolved and that we're struggling just to train what we have now?  I certainly hope not.  After all, there are things that we could do to improve the situation without forcing people to do anything:

  • Where are the re-signing bonuses for veterans willing to re-engage?
  • Where are the incentives to keep people in?
  • Where are the financial bonuses - beyond FSP increments - for extra tours?  How 'bout a lump sum payment for (say) a third tour?
  • Where is the effort to encourage CT - beyond a lot of talk?
  • Where is an initiative to bring Reservists on to long term contract and all the talk of "full-time/part-time"?
  • Where is the guarantee of a remuster after a certain amount of time in the infantry?

I could go on, but you get the idea.  There's been a lot of talk over the past few years, but very, very little in the way of concrete action.

The US army has been doing "blue to green" for a bit now (mind you, they're taking in people being made redundant in the blue trades):

Right, but this is a voluntary programme.

Edited to be more constructive...
 
Teddy Ruxpin said:
+1  If this is indeed the case, and we don't have the full context of the CDS' remarks or any indication whatsoever of a "plan", this is a disaster in the making.  As delavan pointed out, the number of VRs, redresses and human rights complaints could be epic.  It smacks of the US Army's "stop loss" programmes, forced activations, forced extensions to retirement dates, and forced re-musters.  Are we really there yet, especially given that the strains on the training system haven't been resolved and that we're struggling just to train what we have now?  I certainly hope not.

I suppose they could first use a bonus system for voluntary transfers before arbitrarily moving people around, although that would probably cause the current infantry soldiers to flip out. Not sure about the redress and VR processes, but I don't think there is a substantive human rights issue in play here - unless one suddenly gets invented to fit the situation. [been known to happen]. 
 
milnewstbay said:
"Back home in the army, across the Canadian Forces, we are going to be rerolling a whole bunch of folks in the training pipeline now into the infantry," Hillier said.  "They might be signed up to be an armoured soldier or an artillery man or woman, but for the next two years or so we are going to turn them into infantry men or women."

I wonder what this means for the armoured corp attrition to OT and VR?From the way this is stated it sounds pretty strait forward that armoured and artillery will not get recruits.

Interesting times indeed.
 
What's missing here is any mention of the number of volunteers from the other forces. If there is (and there probably is) a fair number of guys/gals willing to do a tour but are not eligible because they are in the AF or Navy, why not take them up on it?

my 1 cent, I need the other
 
A number of courses in Cornwallis and later St Jean (or so I am told about St Jean) have been voluntold into a different trade.

However I would hazard a guess that it will be voluntary -- they can get out or go 031
 
Will Reserve armoured recruits be re-rolled into infantry, or is this only in the Regular Force?


 
GAP said:
What's missing here is any mention of the number of volunteers from the other forces. If there is (and there probably is) a fair number of guys/gals willing to do a tour but are not eligible because they are in the AF or Navy, why not take them up on it?

my 1 cent, I need the other

Hell I'd go infantry just to get out of the school....

Also I guess that would apply to armoured/atry officers as well?
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
Is making new recruits into infanteers going to work? Especially for those that never signed up to be an infanteer? I fear this plan of the CDS will only backfire....

milnewstbay said:
The "everyone's an infanteer" actually drew my eye more than the LAV mod stuffs ....

delavan said:
To me, it sounds like they will "rebadge" non-trained armour and arty brand new privates to infantry. ...

Infidel-6 said:
A number of courses in Cornwallis and later St Jean (or so I am told about St Jean) have been voluntold into a different trade.

However I would hazard a guess that it will be voluntary -- they can get out or go 031

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
Just what we need.  People that don't want to be there.


How many times have we seen the suggestion here at army.ca that "everyone should start in the combat arms".

Well, perhaps this is going to be a big dose of "be careful what you wish for ...."
 
Everyone should, however if your going in knowing your starting with cmbt arms its a little different then going in to be a clerk then being told your doing something else first.
 
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