Forced Element Transfer

[LuvNavy]

Hi, I don't know if this qualifies as an OT related matter, but it was the closest subject I could find.

I enrolled in the military in Sept 07 and graduated in December. I graduated in Navy DEUs. I am now at Borden doing my QL3s as a Cook.  Recently, i was told by my course director that news just came from Ottawa that I am in the army. I am told I don't have a choice and need to switch over.

I guess my question is, is there anyway I can stay navy? I love everything about the navy, the uniform, the ships, the lingo. One of my BMQ instructors was a MasterSeamen and he made me really excited about a career in the navy. So many generations of my family have served in the navy. I just gave in my posting choices and they were Ships East Coast, Ships West Coast, Ships Anywhere and CFB Esquimalt. I'm worried not that my posting suggestions will be overlooked in the army.

Do I write a memo? Will that work? I know cook is a purple trade, and I can cook anywhere, but I really had my heart set on the navy, and I want to graduate from my 3s in a navy uniform.

Any advice will help, I was told a number of reasons why this was happening, but I'm still not sure. Like the army needed more cooks, but I was only one of two navy cooks on my course.

Thanks for your time, I know I'm a little all over the place.

 

[PO2FinClk]

As a Cook, you are a "purple trade" (same as Supply or RMS) which means that regardless of the DEU you wear may be required to serve in the Field, on Ship or on Air Force bases. The DEU itself makes little difference in these matters although they always state they try to match the DEU to the posting/element. This is of course only accomplsihed in the best scenario's and should not be relied upon towards any expectations.

I wear the Navy DEU as well and have spent more time in the field and Air Force bases then I have at Sea. And in my years at sea have sailed with more cooks who wore a DEU other then Navy. Hopefully this illustrates my point.

"The Army" (or Navy for that matter) are not the ones who decide where you are posted, the Cook Career Manager is and all you can do is as you have ensure your posting preferences are known. Every purple trade has an elemental ratio to their PML, in oher words need to have certain % of pers in each DEU. Perhaps they were short of Army DEU Cooks and in turn are readjusting to meet their ratio's.

 

[LuvNavy]

So if the uniform that I am wearing doesn't matter, what would be the point if going through all that trouble, if I could just stay Navy? And if they make me change to army, would i be allowed to remuster navy? I know the element doesn't matter to the trade, but it matters to me.

 

[kincanucks]

would i be allowed to remuster navy?

Sure.  Just pick a navy trade that you like and apply for remuster to it.  Otherwise, Green is Keen!!

 

[SweetNavyJustice]

LuvNavy,

I was in the same boat when I transfered once-upon-a-time to the intelligence branch.  I had been a hard sea trade, and the int branch wanted me to switch for airforce.  No disrespect to the airforce, but it wasn't a uniform that I could see myself in.  Back in those days, intelligence was a purple trade also. 

The chief of the branch asked if I would like to stay navy and I said yes - so he had my message changed so that I was int in the navy. 

If it were me, I'd write a memo requesting to remain navy DEU - since as everyone here has said, it's a purple trade so why should it matter.  For the CF it's a number game.  They require x number of people wearing x number of different coloured uniforms.  To you it's about feeling comfortable in the uniform you're in.  Ultimately, the CF's requirement will win out, but a memo can't hurt. 

Even if your memo goes through, remember that there is no guarantee that you will ever step foot on a ship or see a naval base as a cook.  You will be posted to where you are needed. 

Good luck.

 

[PO2FinClk]

So if the uniform that I am wearing doesn't matter, what would be the point if going through all that trouble, if I could just stay Navy?
Reread teh lasts entence in my post about %'s and PML, its a CF requirement.

nd if they make me change to army, would i be allowed to remuster navy?

Do you mean out of the Cook trade or do you mean from Army Cook to Navy Cook? If it is the latter then you have not grasped the concept of a "purple" trade, a Cook is a Cook regardless of the DEU and element they work in. A remuster, or Occupational Transfer (OT), applies when someone changes occupation. As kincanucks states, apply to go Boatswain ro Steward, those are hard sea trades.

 

[George Wallace]

Do you mean out of the Cook trade or do you mean from Army Cook to Navy Cook? If it is the latter then you have not grasped the concept of a "purple" trade, a Cook is a Cook regardless of the DEU and element they work in. A remuster, or Occupational Transfer (OT), applies when someone changes occupation. As kincanucks states, apply to go Boatswain ro Steward, those are hard sea trades.

I think you missed his point in an earlier post.  It is the kool looking Navy Uniform that they want to keep. 

 

[zorro]

I think you missed his point in an earlier post.   It is the kool looking Navy Uniform that they want to keep.   

I dunno... the Airforce uniform is definately the best looking!!

Each to his own.

 

[dimsum]

I dunno... the Airforce uniform is definately the best looking!!

Each to his own.

Except for those wedges.  ;D

 

[Eye In The Sky]

aka 'head wallet'.

 

[MedTechStudent]

Lol I applied for the Air Force uniform but alas, was given land.  Meh fine with me.

 

[armyvern]

Moral of the story is:

If one wants a guaranteed "career in the Navy" --- one should not enrol in the CF as a purple trade.

If one wants a guaranteed "career in the Air Force" --- one should not join the CF as a purple trade.

If one wants a guaranteed "career in the Army" --- one should not join as a purple trade.

First thing you need to do is figure out why you joined what you did.

Did you join to be a cook - or did you join to be in the Navy? I suspect that you joined to "be in the Navy", perhaps not such a wise choice of trades given that you've stated you understood what "purple" meant when you chose the trade. Choosing "purple" means you are choosing to wear a "purple" (btw - purple is what happens when one mixes black, green and blue) uniform, and that "purple" uniform entails putting on whichever uniform of whichever enviornment happens to be understrength. Apparently, with a forced switch-out of DEU - it would seem to me that the Naval enviornment is over-strength in purple cooks and that the Army is under-strength in purple cooks. A re-distribution of assets to where they are required so-to-speak.

If you joined to be a cook, what does it matter what uniform you're wearing as long as you're the happy cooker? They do cook on Air and Land bases as well.

Perhaps too, I suspect, the recent CANFORGEN regarding trg for purple types is showing it's impact ... and that now it really DOES matter which uniform colour a purple trade wears ... and if the Army is short and needs "purple" cooks ... the Army uniform will now win out due to operational necessity to get these "purple cooks" onto the required Army courses such as SQ/PLQ etc -- which they can no longer do if in a "different" uniform.










Xaviera - what a girl. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I enrolled in the military in Sept 07 and graduated in December. I graduated in Navy DEUs.

Vern,

I agree with your post...but (there is always a but isn't there?) this mbr would have had to have been given a conditional offer of enrolment, accepted it and then received a posting/BMQ course load msg, etc stating that the DEU of this mbr was Navy. 

I don't know the regs on this but, from a mbr's standpoint, if they were offered a position as a cook and wearing the Navy DEU, the mbr should be left in that DEU..unless of course someone knows of a regulation or directive that allows the CF to reassign DEU as it sees fit?

My position is "show me in black and white where the CF can reassign DEUs to members" and I'll be satisfied, but I like to see it in writing.  ;D  I looked quickly for something as I believe I read 'somewhere' once that if the mbr was not qualified to QL3 level they can reassign DEU if required.

 

[armyvern]

Vern,

I agree with your post...but (there is always a but isn't there?) this mbr would have had to have been given a conditional offer of enrolment, accepted it and then received a posting/BMQ course load msg, etc stating that the DEU of this mbr was Navy. 

I don't know the regs on this but, from a mbr's standpoint, if they were offered a position as a cook and wearing the Navy DEU, the mbr should be left in that DEU..unless of course someone knows of a regulation or directive that allows the CF to reassign DEU as it sees fit?

My position is "show me in black and white where the CF can reassign DEUs to members" and I'll be satisfied, but I like to see it in writing.   ;D   I looked quickly for something as I believe I read 'somewhere' once that if the mbr was not qualified to QL3 level they can reassign DEU if required.

I know what your point of view on black/white is. 

I also recall something along the lines of your "QL3 qual" statement above.

But, even perhaps ... with that CANFORGEN ... army to army / air to air / sea to sea may be the way ahead (as was suggested in that particular thread as the most "make-sense" reason for precluding Air/Sea purple from doing "army" courses) and therfore those elements which are undermanned in certain "purple" trades ... will be seeing pers reassigned from over-strength elements. Policies can/do/have changed dependant upon operational necessity ... and I think the Army has pretty much got a case for backing up their op requirements right now.

Don't forget - not everyone in purple trades even got a choice of uniform colours in the first place -- some were just assigned them based upon where they happened to be posted when the DEU came into force; others asked -- but were assigned something else. Purple Recruits "request" a uniform colour/state their preference ... if they "happen" to get assigned that uniform colour, that's simply a "bonus"; it's certainly not a "given" and is far from an "entitlement" --- and I'm pretty sure that the recruiting centres are still making it clear to recruits that, at the end of the day, "purple means purple" and that no matter what uniform colour you end up wearing ... to consider it as "purple" in colour, not Navy, not Air, not Land. (Actually, watching the cook video on this link here to recruiting ... says it all for me - they make no bones about it "one of the best things about being a cook is that you can serve  anywhere in the world and with any element" ...<--- comments like this are made made quite a few times during the "Cook" video actually) Cook And then, there's this quote from their Recruiting "Job Description":

A Cook may serve with and in support of seagoing ships and submarines, land field forces and air force squadrons, either on static or deployed operation

Even purchasing rules/regulations can be seen to become more "flexible" when "operational necessity" is thrown in. So again, if he wanted a "strictly Naval" career -- (or was expecting that) ... choosing a purple trade was not perhaps the correct way to go given that it should not be a shocker to him that he wasn't to expect to spend his career with the Navy as per the Cook's video and write-up from the Recruiting site. If he wanted to have a Naval career - he should have chosen a Naval trade, not a purple trade.

 

[Greymatters]

Ive heard this before, and as I understood it way back when (about 15 years ago), you cannot be forced to change elements unless you agree to it.  The purpose of the 'encouraged' element change, as I was informed then, was to balance purple trade element compositions.  In other words, they wanted more air force represented in the purple trade, so they told a soldier they would be voluntarily switching to blue uniforms. 

Of course, that was back then, but Ive seen the same tactic rear its head a time or two since then.  The question to ask is, is it a legitmate order in this case, or some bean counter trying to make the trade look more elementally balanced?     

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I know what your point of view on black/white is. 

Damn I forgot that! 

I am going to poke around and see if I can't find the goods on the subject from an 'official policy' perspective. 

 

[armyvern]

Damn I forgot that! 

I am going to poke around and see if I can't find the goods on the subject from an 'official policy' perspective. 

Freak.  8)

;D

See, now you're on the right track -- I was going to suggest that it worked both ways. And, was going to ask you to show me the policy in black and white that states uniform changes can NOT be directed.  >

 

[The Bread Guy]

aka 'head wallet'.

To put it VERY politely.... 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Freak.  8)

;D

See, now you're on the right track -- I was going to suggest that it worked both ways. And, was going to ask you to show me the policy in black and white that states uniform changes can NOT be directed.  >

I've heard that one before!  ;D

(no luck yet but still looking)

 

[ammocat]

I was on course in Borden a couple of years ago and attended a briefing where the lecturer talked about certain log trades becoming single element trades, thus only wearing one DEU. Perhaps this is the case. Unfortunately, I didn't pay attention as in my trade we only have one option of DEU. There must be a directive or something that covers this, I will do some digging and see what pops up.