FORCE test, COVID and PERs

Furniture

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I find it pretty insulting that the CAF doesn't trust Snr NCOs, Warrant/Pretty Officers and Officers to administer something as simple as a PT test. How "qualified" does someone need to be to watch someone lift sandbags above a line of tape on a wall the required amount of times?

This is what happens when mini-empires are allowed to establish themselves. There is far too much civilian control in the modern military, for my liking.
I imagine part of it is the PSP empire, and part is that PSP aren't part of a members CoC. They have no motivation to reward or punish someone with false scores. The simple solution to that would be having Snr members from other units conduct the tests, but we already have PSP kicking around, so why bother?
 

daftandbarmy

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I imagine part of it is the PSP empire, and part is that PSP aren't part of a members CoC. They have no motivation to reward or punish someone with false scores. The simple solution to that would be having Snr members from other units conduct the tests, but we already have PSP kicking around, so why bother?
Like weapon handling, voice procedure, vehicle and equipment maintenance, small and large unit tactics etc etc, fitness training and testing is an important part of leading the development of a successful fighting force.

Even more importantly, depending on what role you play on the battlefield, physical fitness can be a decisive factor in whether you win or lose, live or die.

In the 'olden days' tasking junior leaders, and potential junior leaders, with running fitness training for the unit was an excellent way to build even better, more physically fit, leaders.

If we are willing to take away the ability of units to do their own fitness training, how can we expect them to take greater ownership over that critically important aspect of preparing for battle?
 

ModlrMike

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We have two qualified FORCE evaluators, both belonging to the recruiting cell. They are only allowed to conduct FORCE evaluations in that context, but of course they're under employed as civies are not allowed in the building.

For us, PSP comes in monthly and does our FORCE tests, but we're going to have significant numbers of expired pers this year as civies are not allowed in the building.
 

Furniture

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Like weapon handling, voice procedure, vehicle and equipment maintenance, small and large unit tactics etc etc, fitness training and testing is an important part of leading the development of a successful fighting force.

Even more importantly, depending on what role you play on the battlefield, physical fitness can be a decisive factor in whether you win or lose, live or die.

In the 'olden days' tasking junior leaders, and potential junior leaders, with running fitness training for the unit was an excellent way to build even better, more physically fit, leaders.

If we are willing to take away the ability of units to do their own fitness training, how can we expect them to take greater ownership over that critically important aspect of preparing for battle?
I haven't suggested we don't let units conduct the PT training, I suggested we don't allow them to evaluate the training. It helps prevent units from deciding on their own standards, and as I said earlier rewarding/punishing those they choose. I'm not suggesting most units would do it, but it would happen.

The training conducted at the unit level is tested by training staff outside the unit CoC prior to a unit going to theater. When on ship, we had Sea Training sail with us several times prior to deploying, to ensure the training we had done as a unit was up to the standard. Having Snr pers from outside the CoC come in and conduct PT evaluations would be no different, apart from some people maybe being offended that a PO1 or Air Force WO is evaluating the fitness of an army Cpl.

That said, so long as we pay PSP staff to be at the gym it is unlikely that we will not use them for Pt evaluations.
 

dimsum

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Having Snr pers from outside the CoC come in and conduct PT evaluations would be no different, apart from some people maybe being offended that a PO1 or Air Force WO is evaluating the fitness of an army Cpl.
That's silly. It's not like you have to be equally fit to see whether their foot is past the line or how high the sandbag went on the lift.
 

daftandbarmy

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I haven't suggested we don't let units conduct the PT training, I suggested we don't allow them to evaluate the training. It helps prevent units from deciding on their own standards, and as I said earlier rewarding/punishing those they choose. I'm not suggesting most units would do it, but it would happen.

The training conducted at the unit level is tested by training staff outside the unit CoC prior to a unit going to theater. When on ship, we had Sea Training sail with us several times prior to deploying, to ensure the training we had done as a unit was up to the standard. Having Snr pers from outside the CoC come in and conduct PT evaluations would be no different, apart from some people maybe being offended that a PO1 or Air Force WO is evaluating the fitness of an army Cpl.

That said, so long as we pay PSP staff to be at the gym it is unlikely that we will not use them for Pt evaluations.

Agreed. It's not about the training, it's about who does the testing.

Based on the FORCE test rationale, I'll assume then that we'll need some kind of supreme being, in the form of a CAF level evaluator, to formally sign off on our TOET's, or run our PWT 3 for us, as well?

I mean, seriously, this is Empire Building of the most obvious type, isn't it?
 

daftandbarmy

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But but, can they put it on an iPad? And tell you that if you go faster next year you’ll get more points?
sad bunny GIF
 

Eye In The Sky

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I haven't suggested we don't let units conduct the PT training, I suggested we don't allow them to evaluate the training. It helps prevent units from deciding on their own standards, and as I said earlier rewarding/punishing those they choose. I'm not suggesting most units would do it, but it would happen.

Using LRP as an example, Pilot Captains are Aircraft Commander and Crew Commanders. They sign for aircraft, and lead crews of up to 14+ people and sometimes a small maint team on deployments to foreign countries to conduct operations. They pass upgrades, boards and are appointed to their Skipper position ultimately with the CO blessing. ACSOs are Lead ACSOs (TacNavs) and also crew commanders, also after successfully navigating upgrades, boards, and CO appointment. AES Op Snr and Jnr NCOs are appointed as Lead AES Op by COs and charged with many aspects of leadership and responsibility, including assessment of subordinates and their flying/trade proficiency. Flight Engineers are responsible for the maint folks, AC serviceability, weight/balance. They can range in rank from Cpl to MWO and are also appointed as Lead FE by the CO. A top category Cpl can effectively be a Basic Category qual MCpl -> MWOs boss for all things flying related.

Despite all of the responsibility and trust bestowed on these folks...it's somehow above their ability to oversee a fitness test? :rolleyes:

We, as the CAF, entrust things like UDIs to Warrant/Petty Officers, Junior Officers. Designated Assistants...same. Summary Trial, Remedial Measures to correct Conduct/Performance deficiencies. These are all done by the same people who could administer a simple fitness test.

I'm not a fan of 'wide brush' restrictions or policy to prevent something that "might happen" on a limited level. Punish those who abuse their authority. Simple. If we can't be trusted with a fitness test, we're truly fucked and should be disbanded as a military.
 
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daftandbarmy

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Using LRP as an example, Pilot Captains are Aircraft Commander and Crew Commanders. They sign for aircraft, and lead crews of up to 14+ people and sometimes a small maint team on deployments to foreign countries to conduct operations. They pass upgrades, boards and are appointed to their Skipper position ultimately with the CO blessing. ACSOs are Lead ACSOs (TacNavs) and also crew commanders, also after successfully navigating upgrades, boards, and CO appointment. AES Op Snr and Jnr NCOs are appointed as Lead AES Op by COs and charged with many aspects of leadership and responsibility, including assessment of subordinates and their flying/trade proficiency. Flight Engineers are responsible for the maint folks, AC serviceability, weight/balance. They can range in rank from Cpl to MWO and are also appointed as Lead FE by the CO. A top category Cpl can effectively be a Basic Category qual MCpl -> MWOs boss for all things flying related.

Despite all of the responsibility and trust bestowed on these folks...it's somehow above their ability to oversee a fitness test? :rolleyes:

We, as the CAF, entrust things like UDIs to Warrant/Petty Officers, Junior Officers. Designated Assistants...same. Summary Trial, Remedial Measures to correct Conduct/Performance deficiencies. These are all done by the same people who could administer a simple fitness test.

I'm not a fan of 'wide brush' restrictions or policy to prevent something that "might happen" on a limited level. Punish those who abuse their authority. Simple. If we can't be trusted with a fitness test, we're truly fucked and should be disbanded as a military.
Meme Reaction GIF by Robert E Blackmon
 

dimsum

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I'm too lazy to research this, but are we the only military to have fitness testing done by non-military personnel? I know the UK, Australia, etc have uniformed PT personnel (and so did we until the 90s).
 

daftandbarmy

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I'm too lazy to research this, but are we the only military to have fitness testing done by non-military personnel? I know the UK, Australia, etc have uniformed PT personnel (and so did we until the 90s).
In the UK, units had PT staff who were trained by the RAPTC (Royal Army Physical Training Corps). a.k.a. 'The Club Swingers'

These RAPTC trained regimental PT staff ran most of our PT testing, and helped the CO build a good fitness program to match whatever we were getting ready for. Coy level PT staff helped the OCs execute. As a Coy 2IC, I had access to these well trained people to help implement great PT for the troops.

On courses, like at RMA Sandhurst and the various Recruit training depots, the RAPTC staff ran much of the physical training.

And it was always really, really hard.

I was at Depot PARA in 1982 and recall watching 2 & 3 PARA doing their (really short term) workups for deployment to the Falklands War, surrounded by a cloud of RAPTC staff. They were beasted mercilessly, but scientifically, and did regular 20 milers culminating in a 50 miler carrying up to 70lb loads. No surprise, this training came in handy for the main event, as is well documented.

Shortly thereafter, I enjoyed a similar 'privilege' at the hands of the Club Swingers :)
 

kev994

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I'm too lazy to research this, but are we the only military to have fitness testing done by non-military personnel? I know the UK, Australia, etc have uniformed PT personnel (and so did we until the 90s).
USCG doesn’t have a fitness test, they have weight limitations. Their aircrew has an annual swim test overseen by the swimmers. Though in fairness it would be pretty obvious if someone failed the swim test.
 

Quirky

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I miss the old shuttle beep test and watching the completely out of shape hippos barely make it to level 4/5. Why women had lower standards for that test I never knew, cardio and running is something that's universal and doesn't discriminate on gender. It was always fun watching hardcore gym rats who didn't do any sort of endurance training to back their weights fail before level 8. I could still bench/dead/squat 2 plates for reps in my 20s but I backed it up with reaching at least level 10 on the run. Too many people failed that test so they eroded fitness standards to sandbag lifts because that's easier. Probably for another thread though.
 

MJP

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They didn't change it because people were failing nor were many people failing it outright anyway. They changed it became the EXPRES test had little correlation to the six Common Military Tasks. It made as it should be one common standard for all members of the CAF regardless of trade, age or gender that is scientifically correlated to the actual standard. Hard to kick someone out for not meeting the standard if your standard isn't linked to the Bona Fide Occupational Requirements.

Common Military Task Fitness Evaluation

The Canadian Forces developed the Minimum Physical Fitness Standard for all military personnel, regardless of trade classification, age or gender. Extensive research provided six Common Military Tasks, which all personnel might be expected to perform in time of emergency. This rationale was used as the basis to establish Bona Fide Occupational Requirements (BFOR) in compliance with the Charter of Human Rights.

There are six common military tasks which form the new Minimum Physical Fitness Standard for Universality of Service. They are essential, physically demanding tasks anyone in the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) is expected to be able to perform. These tasks are derived from real operational scenarios which have been identified and described by military subject matter experts, and have been scientifically validated by the PSP Directorate of Fitness.
 

Quirky

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How many trades does the six common military tasks affect on a daily basis? I have never done any of those things, including on international ex’s or deployments. The minimum standard for our current FORCE test is a joke and doesn’t encourage a healthy active lifestyle.
 

kev994

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How many trades does the six common military tasks affect on a daily basis? I have never done any of those things, including on international ex’s or deployments. The minimum standard for our current FORCE test is a joke and doesn’t encourage a healthy active lifestyle.
When it first came in I said the same thing... about a week later Portage-la-Prairie flooded and I had to send a bunch of pilots to fill and pile sandbags.
 

MJP

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How many trades does the six common military tasks affect on a daily basis? I have never done any of those things, including on international ex’s or deployments. The minimum standard for our current FORCE test is a joke and doesn’t encourage a healthy active lifestyle.
Likely very few but that isn't the point nor is the FORCE designed to encourage a healthy life style. It is a bare minimum physical standard that applies to all military personnel as they could have to do any one of those six tasks at some point in their career regardless of trade. Lots of folks that thought they would never have to encounter those tasks got introduced to them from 2002-2012.

CAF L1s are free to create their own tests to encourage physical fitness standards that better meet their environments needs including more stringent testing/standards for certain courses or trades.
 
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