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ET's and Stokers the same trade in 2017?

Pusser

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I didn't intend to get into a bunfight over who works hardest or over how the workload is distributed.  However, I will argue that all-ship evolutions affect everyone and other departments have work that they too feel is affected and/or delayed by having to participate in them as well.

I recall an incident many years ago when I was young OOD.  I was under a lot of pressure to get the ship stored and there seemed to be a distinct lack of personnel coming up for a "clear lower decks" evolution.  So, I sent the POOD through the ship to roust the stragglers.  The next thing you know, I'm getting an earful from the Chief HT for daring to try and take away his personnel who were doing much more important things.  Interesting I thought when in fact, we were only rousting those who weren't doing anything else.  The individuals in question were actually just sitting around.  In other words, they weren't doing what the Chief HT wanted them to be doing either….
 

Halifax Tar

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maple360 said:
As the guy at the bottom of the pole, I find the trade great. The problem comes in when there is WORK to be done and the bosses feel that we should take part in store ship/cleaning stations/hands fall in/ etc when we have Rod or DG problems that need to be sorted or we don't go home type thing. I think the best one I had to deal with is trying to find time to train while doing a refit, because the time starts ticking on those packages while only getting a few hours a month to sit down and learn about the gear.

As for this ET and Stoker merging. The problem is going to be 10x more then it is now. The fives are going to be what you have to specialize in, and from the feedback I'm getting, everyone will go towards the ET side and some will be forced to go stoker side. And telling a guy he cant do what he wanted to do at the recruitment center, well... he's just going to tell the boss to pound sand and VR. CSE is having the same problem with weapons tech and sonar tech.

Ahh the classic I'm a tech why do I have to do non-techy things argument. 

Because your in the Navy that's why.  The ship comes first and that includes things like repairing mechanical/electrical do dads just as much as storing ship. 

In the same argument, why am I as a LS and below Sup Tech having to do HQ1 rounds or partship hands ?  Why because I am a sailor and its part and parcel with my job just as much as my primary function.

Some days your get off early and some days your late.  Hell, somedays everyone else will get off early and you will stay late alone while sometimes the opposite is true.  It all equals out in the end my friend; but your gripe is as old as the Navy itself I would reccon.  All trades do it no one is special.
 

Pat in Halifax

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We strayed off course here for sure and no one is saying that any one trade is 'more important' than the other but by your way of thinking (we all use the stuff we store so we should all store ship), then we should all stand ROD watches, cook our own meals and do our own laundry-This is why we have a multitude of trades and disciplines on board. I was talking more about that portion of the crew who are pure Operator and other than training, do not really have a dedicated job alongside. (Across all ranks)...but we digress and I really don't think we should start a "I do more than you" thread.

There has been substantial movement in the last 48 hours on this front as both current trades now have to look at how a restructured Reserve engineer could fit into the mix-still not clear if MESO is gone or if a limited Res ER will come along. We have a teleconf next week with senior Mar Eng, ETech and MESO on both coasts and Ottawa (and QC). As we do not have clear direction nor a definite time line on this, we are looking at commonalities and potential areas for delta training. Currently there is no dedicated MESO Occ Mgr in Ottawa and one Chief is the combined ETech/Mar Eng Occ Mgr and he will be developing a Problem Definition Paper (first stage of the amalgamation) in the coming weeks. I am pretty sure trades will start seeing the skeleton of a road map by this summer.

I encourage each of you (ETechs and Mar Eng) to forward any insight (not bitches) on this through your CoC to coastal advisors for input to the Occ Mgr. I know I am having a meeting with as many Mar Eng Cert 4s as are available next week here in Halifax to discuss this (among other things) and I am sure the snr ETech here as well as our west coast counterparts will do the same. Look for a bit of a general briefing to the trade(s) possibly as early as late spring.

Pat
 

Halifax Tar

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Pat in Halifax said:
We strayed off course here for sure and no one is saying that any one trade is 'more important' than the other but by your way of thinking (we all use the stuff we store so we should all store ship), then we should all stand ROD watches, cook our own meals and do our own laundry-This is why we have a multitude of trades and disciplines on board. I was talking more about that portion of the crew who are pure Operator and other than training, do not really have a dedicated job alongside. (Across all ranks)...but we digress and I really don't think we should start a "I do more than you" thread.

Hey Pat, not my intention at all.  Simply trying to display how it takes a whole ships company to have the ship float, fight and move. 

I come from the school of thought that from the Captain down to the lowest OS everyone has a an important role play.  Some times it sucks and some times its gravey.

 

Navy_Pete

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Pat in Halifax said:
Quite the contrary. And if you have been to the briefings, a restructuring of the MESO trade or even more is going to happen. Unfortunately, under it's current construct, the MESO trade does not meet one of the ResF mandates; to supplement RegF-MESO is the only Naval Reserve trade without a RegF counterpart.

I am not sure where you are getting your crewing info re new ships-We haven't even arrived at 'final' crew numbers let alone breakdown by department.

As for the Mar Eng - ET thing, like it or not; it is going to happen...and a little faster than some may think. As I told a few others already, you can be a part of it or you can stand by and be told what to do. What's the saying (again)?: "You can lead, you can follow or you can get run over."

Pat
And as most of you on here (this thread) know who I am, if you have ANY ideas, you likely also know where I am located. If not, PM me-I am more than willing to sit down and hear your thoughts.

Pat, which briefings do you mean?  Since coming to Ottawa, never hear about the tech CM briefings anymore; was there something in there?  The last one I was at was in the summer from the Stoker/MSEO oc managers, and there is still a lot of work to do there.

I guess my point is that they are years behind getting this in place for 2017.  It's something they could easily adopt from the get go with the new ships (although in the AOPs & JSS TSOR they are still separate trades; makes a huge difference for the ISSC as that will change the training completely, as well as the manning and concept of operations for the crew).  I think the RN already does common training up until their equivalent of the fives course, where they split off into specializations.

For crewing on the CSC they are assuming it's the same as the frigate +10% with the same watch schedule.  Which aside from being ridiculous, frigate steaming watch is the 280 steaming watch... which is the WW2 era steamer steaming watch.  So it's great to want to change how the techs are arranged, but pointless until they break the 60+ year old mindset on how the MCR is manned at sea.  And with another 15 years of frigates left, they will also need to change the conops for those as well, which no one is working on.  280s and tankers are for all intents and purposes gone in the next few years so they won't be affected, but they've yet to start even looking at delta training for all those crews.

Is whoever is doing this working in total isolation?  To have this in place properly for the new ships, it has to be changed now, before the SOW is out for the ISSC for both AOPs and JSS this fall, or it is going to cost a fortune to change after we are in contract.  Which actually sounds like it's likely, as DND routinely does really dumb stuff like that without looking at the broad implications.
 

stokerwes

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Amalgamation should have taken place years ago. I can recall more than I care to remember how many times Mar Eng's would have to wait for an ET to come and isolate something and vice versa before any work could even be started.
In order to do most jobs onboard the manpower is doubled due to the fact you need both ER's & ET's there to do different components of the job. If the ER&ET's were one trade you would eliminate a lot of that.
I can't even begin to imagine how this is going to come about though. I know when it does happen though it is going to be painfull. Sure some people will leave because of it but most techs either ER or ET will jump at the opportunity to have the training. I don't really think the biggest resistance will be the technicians though I think the more longer in the tooth ER's & ET's will resist the change until the bitter end. It is very difficult to easily give up something you have worked very hard at trying to make better for several decades. It is nice to see that senior people though are at doing something to get this on the go. It won't be perfect but  a way to make it work will be found, something both ER's and ET's are very good at.
As far as the 60+ year old mentality I have seen drastic changes in the last 26 years, yes there is still many things that need to be changed and they will eventually change.  I have noticed over the last few years the younger generation, by that I mean people that joined in the mid to late 80's, are effecting change now that they are in the positions to do so. Supervisors and leaders should be promoting this as an exciting time for the trades.
As far as the manning levels go I don't think we will be able to drop those numbers a bunch. Yes the MCR and machinery spaces could be run more efficiently with less people at sea. But there will still be the need for DC and FF and all the other Navy stuff like jackstays, RAS's, storing ship etc.. We can't compare ourselves directly to civilian vessels as they aren't expected to carry on after suffering any type of damage.
It will be very interesting to see the changes come, sadly I'll be out by then. I think anyone that is in now and just starting out will have an excellent opportunity to have a very good career with skills that are readily transferable to the outside world.
Best of luck to those taking on the daunting task of implementing these changes. And I can speak from personal experience that if you do have an idea on how this might happen get in touch with Pat through PM, he'll get back to you.
 

Pat in Halifax

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Navy_Pete said:
Pat, which briefings do you mean?  Since coming to Ottawa, never hear about the tech CM briefings anymore; was there something in there?  The last one I was at was in the summer from the Stoker/MSEO oc managers, and there is still a lot of work to do there.

I guess my point is that they are years behind getting this in place for 2017.  It's something they could easily adopt from the get go with the new ships (although in the AOPs & JSS TSOR they are still separate trades; makes a huge difference for the ISSC as that will change the training completely, as well as the manning and concept of operations for the crew).  I think the RN already does common training up until their equivalent of the fives course, where they split off into specializations.

For crewing on the CSC they are assuming it's the same as the frigate +10% with the same watch schedule.  Which aside from being ridiculous, frigate steaming watch is the 280 steaming watch... which is the WW2 era steamer steaming watch.  So it's great to want to change how the techs are arranged, but pointless until they break the 60+ year old mindset on how the MCR is manned at sea.  And with another 15 years of frigates left, they will also need to change the conops for those as well, which no one is working on.  280s and tankers are for all intents and purposes gone in the next few years so they won't be affected, but they've yet to start even looking at delta training for all those crews.

Is whoever is doing this working in total isolation?  To have this in place properly for the new ships, it has to be changed now, before the SOW is out for the ISSC for both AOPs and JSS this fall, or it is going to cost a fortune to change after we are in contract.  Which actually sounds like it's likely, as DND routinely does really dumb stuff like that without looking at the broad implications.
Sorry, I assumed you were in Halifax. Chief Perry briefed as many MESOs as we could gather together a couple Fridays ago and myself and the Mar Eng coastal advisor were there with him. As I said, there is an initial meeting (Halifax) next Thursday and we are hoping to have some info to pass on then.

As for CSC crewing (that was my 'folder' when I was in Ottawa), we were merely 'starting' with a frigate crew number and working down. The Engineering watch actually from STL (and follow on classes) was 10 and was halved to 5 for the HAL class. Theoretically, we want to halve it again to 2.5 for follow on classes. Our problem right now is that the gear on our current classes does not allow for a reduced engineering watch numbers-It really is the original fit from the 90s. Once we get settled in to the post MLR Hal class, there will indeed be an Establishment review so someone actually IS working on that CONOP.

As much as it appears we are working in isolation, that is not the case-We have given up awaiting direction and have started to move on this as a group (Mar Eng,  ETech and MESO). We are still in the 'ideas' stage and have all agreed not to 'move' on anything yet. If you have ideas, contact Steve in Ottawa and if you don't know who I mean by Steve, let me know.
 

Navy_Pete

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Thanks, will do.  Haven't seen Steve in a while, so seems like a good excuse to get together for a beer.  We are currently working on reviewing the draft of the AJISS contract and are periphally involved in some of the other ISSCs (ie MESO trainer) so would be good to have an idea of what is intended to see if it'll affect the contracts.

The Navy/DND would look pretty dumb if after putting out a huge contract for supporting the new ships and receiving the delivery of the trainers and training packages we changed how they are manned before the initial crew training starts (around 2017).  Depending on how it roles out it may or may not matter.

Cheers
 

Stoker

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Pat in Halifax said:
Sorry, I assumed you were in Halifax. Chief Perry briefed as many MESOs as we could gather together a couple Fridays ago and myself and the Mar Eng coastal advisor were there with him. As I said, there is an initial meeting (Halifax) next Thursday and we are hoping to have some info to pass on then.

As for CSC crewing (that was my 'folder' when I was in Ottawa), we were merely 'starting' with a frigate crew number and working down. The Engineering watch actually from STL (and follow on classes) was 10 and was halved to 5 for the HAL class. Theoretically, we want to halve it again to 2.5 for follow on classes. Our problem right now is that the gear on our current classes does not allow for a reduced engineering watch numbers-It really is the original fit from the 90s. Once we get settled in to the post MLR Hal class, there will indeed be an Establishment review so someone actually IS working on that CONOP.

As much as it appears we are working in isolation, that is not the case-We have given up awaiting direction and have started to move on this as a group (Mar Eng,  ETech and MESO). We are still in the 'ideas' stage and have all agreed not to 'move' on anything yet. If you have ideas, contact Steve in Ottawa and if you don't know who I mean by Steve, let me know.

Yes, it was a good brief. I know the West Coast hasn't been briefed on anything yet, however there are emails going around dealing with the Cert3's at the navres units and pers are starting to ask questions. Hopefully the trade will stay around and i'll still have a job.  Lots of uncertainty, but I'm not ready to panic yet.
 

Pat in Halifax

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Pat in Halifax said:
You need to remember too, a technician's primary alongside job is maintenance (and to a degree at sea as well). A recent study by F4Eng of 5 ships (3 east, 2 west) indicated that actual wrench turning time is less than 15% of the time. We send technicians through a myriad of in depth technical training to do things that require minimal training. It is called bang for the buck and right now we are falling behind. Is this amalgamation the cure? Nope, nor will it solve the 15% issue but like change, it is inevitable, and though not necessarily always good, I don't think this is a horrible move. Again, when the ROD or DG or steering is worked on, usually an ET and ER are paired. From a watch keeping perspective, VIC class employs ETechs and Cert 2s doing the same thing - as the OpCert. Like it or not, we are already doing it-This will just formalize it.

All ship evolutions alongside are a fact of life but with recent CDS direction and essentially the gradual lessening of shore support, we have been directed to increase available maintenance time by 15% (to start). How this will get done, I am sure many have their ideas but then that is a discussion for another thread. That said, for those doubting the above quoted figures, as soon as we correlate it all, I will put the DIN link on here.

Pat

As promised, not all links are yet active but if you click on a data date under "Fleet Maintenance Surveys" you will be able to see the numbers and yes, you will have to peruse through it to figure out exactly what you are viewing.
Apologies but this is a DIN link only:
http://halifax.mil.ca/canfltlant/canfltlanthq/F4.html

I think this whole amalgamation thing will bring a stronger voice to the "Technician" aspect of our jobs.
 

1tech

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Congratulation and welcome to the WENG mistake. When the amalgamation start, you will see lots and lots of promotion....... As usual, some people deserve them, some don't.
 

WestGirl36

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Hello,

I have my application in for ET; interview and medical next month.

I was just wondering if there was any new news on if these two trades are amalgamating? And if so when? Or any information that may be helpful?

Thank you


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J

jollyjacktar

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WestGirl36 said:
Hello,

I have my application in for ET; interview and medical next month.

I was just wondering if there was any new news on if these two trades are amalgamating? And if so when? Or any information that may be helpful?

Thank you


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It's not two trades, it's three.  The Hull Techs are being thrown onto the sacrificial fires of the Great Stoker bleed out of 2010 onwards.  It commences on December 15th of this year.  It will  be some time until the snowball really gets rolling so it's hard to say how soon you'll be impacted by what's coming.  The good news for you is that of the three trades, the ET's are going to come out the with the least amount of burn marks on them. 
 

WestGirl36

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jollyjacktar said:
It's not two trades, it's three.  The Hull Techs are being thrown onto the sacrificial fires of the Great Stoker bleed out of 2010 onwards.  It commences on December 15th of this year.  It will  be some time until the snowball really gets rolling so it's hard to say how soon you'll be impacted by what's coming.  The good news for you is that of the three trades, the ET's are going to come out the with the least amount of burn marks on them.

Hmm very interesting... I'm interested to see if the recruiters mention anything at my interview next month.

Newbie here; but can I ask why the ET's are coming out less scathed? Won't all three trades need to learn two new trades?

I'm joining as semi-skilled (hopefully; pending PLAR) as I am a red seal electrician in the civilian world. I wonder how this may impact my career. Although I'm sure you all are being impacted greatly by this.



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jollyjacktar

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On entry into the trade, there will be common training between all three disciplines so everyone will learn a bit of everything.  Once they're off to their QL5 training they split off into one of two steams.  Mechanical (HT/Stoker) and Electrical (ET).  They carry on that way until they become a Petty Officer 1st Class.  At that level they merge again between all three.  On the whole, the ET won't see a huge difference in what they do now, life will be more or less the same.  Not so for the rest of us.
 

chrisf

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If any ETs find themselves dissatisfied by the change... Merchant shipping is going the opposite direction, traditionally all electrical work at sea was performed by the marine engineers, but as most modern vessels are becoming more electrically complex, many operators are hiring/carrying ETOs...

Starting pay is typically $80-120k, you'll need a broad knowledge of all ships electrical systems, from conventional electrical systems like generation, motors, lighting, propulsion, etc, to controls, electronics and instrumentation, including navigation and communications electronics.

Larger vessels (particularly drilling rigs) often carry specialized "electricians" and "electronics techs" if you're not so good at the electronics.

The money is good, but it's surprisingly hard to find good, qualified people.
 
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jollyjacktar

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new trade badge as suggested by a Clearance Diver the next row over.

stock-vector-cartoon-finger-pushing-button-119562529.jpg
 

WestGirl36

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Not a Sig Op said:
If any ETs find themselves dissatisfied by the change... Merchant shipping is going the opposite direction, traditionally all electrical work at sea was performed by the marine engineers, but as most modern vessels are becoming more electrically complex, many operators are hiring/carrying ETOs...

Starting pay is typically $80-120k, you'll need a broad knowledge of all ships electrical systems, from conventional electrical systems like generation, motors, lighting, propulsion, etc, to controls, electronics and instrumentation, including navigation and communications electronics.

Larger vessels (particularly drilling rigs) often carry specialized "electricians" and "electronics techs" if you're not so good at the electronics.

The money is good, but it's surprisingly hard to find good, qualified people.
I've been working in the oil field/manufacturing industry for the past 10 years. I'm leaving a 100k job to join the RCN. I have always had an interest and wanted to join.

I've come to a point in my career that I'm ready for change in atmosphere. Hoping to see the world and meet a lot of new people. And now it sounds like I may get to learn even more than my previous electrical knowledge. I'm looking forward to serving my country, becoming a sailor, and learning new skills.

So here is me being optimistic for the adventure ahead :)


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chrisf

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WestGirl36 said:
I've been working in the oil field/manufacturing industry for the past 10 years. I'm leaving a 100k job to join the RCN. I have always had an interest and wanted to join.

I've come to a point in my career that I'm ready for change in atmosphere. Hoping to see the world and meet a lot of new people. And now it sounds like I may get to learn even more than my previous electrical knowledge. I'm looking forward to serving my country, becoming a sailor, and learning new skills.

So here is me being optimistic for the adventure ahead :)

Plus when you're eventually bitter miserable and fed up, you'll know what other opportunities are out there.
 
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