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Engineering Regiment Breakdown

Infanteer

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Alright sappers, I‘ve been trying to figure out how an Engineer Regiement is broken down in terms of organization.  Is it something similar to the infantry with equal breakdowns at all levels, or are sub-units organized around specializations (the odd collection of vehicles you guys have leads me to this idea)  Thanks for any info

Chimo (From a confused grunt)
 

Spr.Earl

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Well if we told you we would have to kill you ;)
That‘s why yous lot know nothing about us!!

All joking aside.

A Fld Sqn = 1 Hq. troop + 3 Fld Troop‘s + Park Troop = 200 all rank‘s

(A troop in the real world is about 40 all rank‘s peace time but can grow on battle strength)

Each Troop has it‘s own I.C which is a Lt. and H.Q. ect, you get the drift now? (platoon)

Park Troop(Support) which has all the heavy equipment and rafting and bridging kit and engineer resources (field defence store‘s,mines etc.), plus combat diver‘s and kit

In a regiment mulitiply by 3 to 4 Sqn.‘s = 500 men in peace time if we had the money!!
(perfect cenario :D )

Right now I believe 1 C.E.R. is just below 400 men because of the over tasking‘s due to Field Ex‘s because after Bosnia and Croatia our Army realise‘s OHHH! that‘s what they are for so the guy‘s have to go on every Field Ex. in Wain. with in a month after coming home off tour.
Yes it happen‘s!!!

I don‘t blame them either the life of a Sapper is hard but the having to come home and being told your back in the field after 6 month‘s can pee you off!

Right now in the Force‘s the Engineer‘s has the lowest retention rate amonsgt all arm‘s!!

You asked.
 

Infanteer

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Thanks.

One more question. Is there an engineering sub-unit that deals with "other" duties. When we were in Bihac, we had a whole bunch of engineers come down with excavators, packers, and backhoes to help with camp construction. Would these guys be attached to RHQ?
 

Spr.Earl

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What I think you are refering to is what we call Heavy Troop i.e. the heavy equipment operator‘s which contain‘s everything from Dump Truck‘s,Grader‘s,Dozer‘s etc.,also the Beaver and Badger(Leopard chassi veriant‘s) come under Heavy as a Section and can be used along side heavy equipment.Which are Engineer trade‘s to the chargrin of 935‘s

If you go to the photo gallery I posted a photo of the Badger which has a 5 yard bucket on a telescopic arm and also a dozer blade with extension‘s for the blade.

The power plant for these Engineer Vehicle‘s is larger than the M.B.T..

Hope this help‘s clearing up some of the mysteries of us Thumper Head‘s ;)
 
D

Duotone81

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Spr. Earl,

So with the shortage of men in 1 CER I guess the waiting time to get in wouldn‘t be that long then right? Is their a shortage in all Regiments right now? Do Engineers undertake construction projects when not serving abroad or is it mostly training ex? Sorry for the many questions but i‘m currently a civil engineering technologist and will be applying as a combat engineer when the Landfill project i‘m working on is complete. Plus you‘re a BTDT so the advice doesn‘t get much better.

Thanks
 

Spr.Earl

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Duotone81,hey don‘t be sorry about your question‘s I‘ll try and answer to the best of my knowledge.

Don‘t bet on a quick in!
Yes the Engineer Regiment‘s are short of men and have been for year‘s !

It‘s all up to the recruiter‘s,who also go by the area with in Canada were they will recruit, as dicatated by the Puzzle Palace (NDHQ)

If you live in the N.W.T. you will be in with in 3 month‘s?All depend‘s what they decide in the Puzzle Palace and were you live with in Canada!

You having a civil engineering degree should have no problem‘s,but may I suggest,become a real Sapper first,go through the rank‘s then use your degree then become an Officer.
You having your degree they will try and make you go ocifer!!Go the RANK‘S first!!!!!!!!!!!
You will learn more!!

Yes we do construction job‘s all over Canada and all over the world, but not at the Regiment level but if we are lucky we may get a task at Squadron level but on average it‘s at a Troop level or Section level.All the above are peace time.

Hey we never do construction training Ex.‘s.
When we go and do a conctruction job it‘s for real and to last!

At present I‘m still a Field Engineer but attached to the Air Field Engineer‘s in a section and the unit I‘m with is all survayor‘s,plumber‘s,wood butcher‘s etc.,but I and the boy‘s still get in there and work to get the job done even though we are not R.C.A.F. but we are Army Engineers!!!!!!!!
 
D

Duotone81

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Spr. Earl,

Thanks for the reply. I have a better understanding now of the overall Army Engineers role. Yeah I‘ll be going NCM and decide from their about going Officer. I don‘t have enough practical knowledge or experience to be an Engineering Officer right now. I work with guys that left school at 16 but have more working knowledge than me and are always "schooling me". Theory and text books only take you soo far in the engineering field.

But anyways thanks for the response. I‘ll have to get you a beer when I get in.

cheers
 

Spr.Earl

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Duotone,just a bit of advice and this apllies to all trade‘s.

"Keep your ear‘s open and your mouth shut and learn and there is no such thing as a stupid question in our Trade"

As on Civie street,you will be taught by those with whom you work with and you will be given good and bad advice and it‘s your‘s to pick and choose.

Lot‘s of Luck

UBIQUE
 

McG

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Infanteer said:
McG, you say the Pioneer Platoons were organized along the same lines as a Field Engineer Troop; what is the organizational stucture for these sub-sub units, are they very similar to Rifle Platoons (is: three sections and a headquarters section; heavy weapons?).

As well, I'm looking at the 20CMBG model organizational chart, perhaps you could help me in filling in some gaps.  I see:
-  3 Field Engineer Squadrons consisting of three troops each.  I take it these are the working units of the CER?
-  An admin squadron, quite clear.
-  A fourth Squadron, consisting of four troops: 1 is Eqpt, 1 is Ress, and the other two are unmarked.  What is the role of these troops in this fourth squadron?  I take it they fulfill  specialty roles within the CER.
The other two troops in the Sp Sqn are armoured troops.  However, with the exception of 4 CER, no regiment has ever had two armoured troops (and 4 CER no longer exists).  Where 20 CER has three Field Squadrons of three troops, real CERs have two squadrons of two troops.

Field Troops & Pioneer Platoons each consisted of four sections, a troop HQ (Tp Comd, Tp WO, Recce, & stores).  Sections were armed the same as a rifle section (with the exception of Eryx) and troops were armed the same as platoons (with the exception of 60 mm mortar).  Pioneer and Engineer section vehicles, small tools, and M&E loads were the same.
 

Infanteer

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Ah, you found it for me.  I knew I asked this a while ago; however, the confusion still reigns.  Maybe I'll rebadge to Field Engineer.  :)

The other two troops in the Sp Sqn are armoured troops.  However, with the exception of 4 CER, no regiment has ever had two armoured troops (and 4 CER no longer exists).
 
Armoured Troops as in a troop of four MBT's?  As well, "Equipment" and "Ress" are heavy equipment squadrons?  Are these the troops that contain the bridging, etc?

Where 20 CER has three Field Squadrons of three troops, real CERs have two squadrons of two troops.
That seems to be a CF-wide trend....

Field Troops & Pioneer Platoons each consisted of four sections, a troop HQ (Tp Comd, Tp WO, Recce, & stores).  Sections were armed the same as a rifle section (with the exception of Eryx) and troops were armed the same as platoons (with the exception of 60 mm mortar).  Pioneer and Engineer section vehicles, small tools, and M&E loads were the same.
So, three engineer sections plus HQ section.  Is the recce det (in place of a Weapons Det) also responsible for NBCW, as the Pioneers were?
 

McG

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Armd Tp is two AEV & two AVLB + HQ Sect.

The Fd Tps have four Fd Sections + HQ Sect (Pioneers were the same).
 

Infanteer

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Ah, thanks for the clarification....
 

Spr.Earl

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McG said:
Armd Tp is two AEV & two AVLB + HQ Sect.

The Fd Tps have four Fd Sections + HQ Sect (Pioneers were the same).

McG,having been out of  the loop for a few years (AEF) what's the future of our AEV's and AVLB's.
The reason I ask is because the MBT is on the way out with in our system, so where will that leave us in regards to AV's?
Where's the D&M course going to be held?Unit Level?
Also those questions that may pop up in your mind as to the future of the Engineer AV's.
Have you heard anything?
 

McG

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Infanteer,
More on a real Sp Sqn: Every regular force CER has a Support Squadron which consists of heavy equipment troop, construction troop, and resource troop.  (but Constr Tp is only administratively attached in peace time and actually belongs to 4 ESR).

The Hy Eqpt Tp is home to the HESVs, Dozers, Loaders, Excavators, Graders, and Cranes

The resources troop holds all of our â Å“specialâ ? equipment and provides transportation for what is external to the regiment.  A ROWPU section is part of the troop and conducts all of the brigades water purification.  There is a mine/counter-mine section which holds the mine layers, mine cache stores, bomb suits, and is seen as the source for current mine warfare training.  The stores section hold boats, TMHTS, portable wood-mill, etc.  The stores section also provides transportation of MGB, MFB/MR, bulk mines, and other assets external to the unit.  Often, many of our BBE Ops will be from the stores section.  Lastly, Dive Stores is a part of this troop.


Spr.Earl,
1 CER has the last armoured troop in the country.  The latest Army direction is that the regiment will get an armoured squadron but other changes that are comming may over take this.  At the very least, the regiment will probably have two armoured troops.  Armoured is still a part of Sp Sqn but I would not be surprised if we soon see one troop in each of the two Fd Sqns.
 

Spr.Earl

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"Armoured is still a part of Sp Sqn but I would not be surprised if we soon see one troop in each of the two Fd Sqns."

I hope you are right,as both you and I know how versitile the Badger can be when used properly and also good support for the Fd. Sqns if attached to a Sqn. also this will eliminate having to going through the chain to get one when one is needed.

P.S. Speaking of the Badger,is Bob Simons still in?


 

Infanteer

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Infanteer,
More on a real Sp Sqn: Every regular force CER has a Support Squadron which consists of heavy equipment troop, construction troop, and resource troop.  (but Constr Tp is only administratively attached in peace time and actually belongs to 4 ESR).

The Hy Eqpt Tp is home to the HESVs, Dozers, Loaders, Excavators, Graders, and Cranes

The resources troop holds all of our â Å“specialâ ? equipment and provides transportation for what is external to the regiment.  A ROWPU section is part of the troop and conducts all of the brigades water purification.  There is a mine/counter-mine section which holds the mine layers, mine cache stores, bomb suits, and is seen as the source for current mine warfare training.  The stores section hold boats, TMHTS, portable wood-mill, etc.  The stores section also provides transportation of MGB, MFB/MR, bulk mines, and other assets external to the unit.  Often, many of our BBE Ops will be from the stores section.  Lastly, Dive Stores is a part of this troop.

Thanks alot for the clarification.  Makes things alot easier for me.

Two more questions:
1) Do the Sappers in the Field Squadrons use LAV III's as their principal method of transport in the 20 CMBG concept?  I remember seeing a bunch with all the rest of that stuff in the 1 CER compound.

2) Are the Engineers in process of taking over the NBCW role that the Pioneers had, or did they already have it?  Is it going to be a general skill, or placed in HQ or Support Squadron as a NBCW Troop.
 

McG

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1) On this note we are in the process of a change.  Tp Comd & Recce each have a LAV III.  The Tp WO has an M113 with dual radios to function as Tp CP.  Currently our section vehicle is changing from old M113 to new M113A3.  In the near future, half of the field sections will be in the LAV III Engr but none of these are in the system yet.  I do not know how fleet management will impact this vehicle distribution.

2) Engineers have always had responsibility for NBCD, but we have never given it the attention it deserves.  Hopefully this will change.  (As a side note, the NBCW school in Borden has several hard engineer positions).
 
Y

Yard Ape

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20_CER.jpg
 

MedCorps

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We were just talking about the "future org" of the CER a few days ago.  The Eng O that was speaking noted that with the loss of Pnr and assault tps the future structure will look like:

CER (45-112-565)

HQ Sqn
    RHQ Tp
          Comd Gp
          ESCC
          Sig Section
    Adm Sqn
            SHQ
            Log Tp
            Med Section
            Maint Tp

Fd Engr Sqn x 3 (7-23-123)
      HQ Tp
      Fd Engr Tp x 2  (2 x LAV III, 1 x LAV CP, 2 x HLVW, 4 x LAV Engr)
      Close Sp Tp (2 x LAV III, 1 x LAV CP, 2 AEV, 2 AVLB, 4 x Leo with plough no turret), 4 x MPEV, 4   
                                VLMDS, 2 x HLVW)

Engr Sp Sqn
      HQ Tp
      Equip Tp (2 x LAV III, 1 x LAV CP, 2 Hy Dozer, 2 Med Dozer, 2 Med Loader, 4 MPEV, 2 Crane, 2
                          Med Excavator, 4 Dump, 6 HESV, 5 HLVW)
      Construction Tp
      Resource Tp (2 x LAV III, 1x LAV CP, 9 x PLS, 1 ML Dive SEV, 4 HLVW, 2 ROWPU, 1 MLVW)



Hope that is of some interest.  Still seems like we did not replace the Pnr / Asslt Tps very well, as there is only one Close Sp Tp. 

Cheers,

MC
 

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Hi MedCorps, for the ignorant and uninformed here........that would be me if no one else ..... What is a VLMDS when it's at home?

And wrt the Badger AEVs, the Beaver AVLBs and the Leo Dozers are we planning on converting some of the Leo MBTs or reducing the number of Engineer Regiments/Squadrons? 

As I understand it we only have 8 of each of the AEVs and AVLBs and about the same number of Dozer Tanks (1/Sqn of 19?)

With your ORBAT, as I would interpret it we need 6 AEVs, 6 AVLBs and 6 Dozer Tanks per Regiment or about 18 of each for three Regiments.  Not including Wainwright, Gagetown, Borden and Deployment stocks.  With those we would pretty near have to convert our entire current holdings of Leos to Engr variants - could have a couple left over to convert to HAPCs maybe.

On the other hand Matt Fisher's post on the MPEV seems to suggest that with a buy of 28 vehicles the Engineers could be being downsized to 6 or 7 Squadrons, again assuming your ORBAT requirement of 4 MPEV per Field Squadron.

Or is it possible that two Regiments will be equipped with MPEVs in the Support Troops while one will have two Squadrons supported with AEVs and AVLBs while the third Squadron has MPEVs?

Just trying to get a handle on this.  Thanks.

 
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