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Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty

  • Thread starter Thread starter mattoigta
  • Start date Start date
Lol...ah, the old sub problem. What do you do if you find one in your waters? Destroy it? That only causes too much of a problem. Tell everybody? Then you look weak because it's in your waters to begin with. Ping it over and over? Seems the only good thing in between the two extremes- makes the crew know they're being watched, and the sub's owner will know you're serious.

The Conservative idea for a new Arctic sensor system (which made the Globe today) does seem to be a good one, as the nature of the threat in the North has changed. However, this system will need to be backed up by rapid reaction forces that can reach the problem area in time as sensors alone are useless. The Liberal plan right now seems to be simply hoping people will respect our Arctic sovereignty because "we say so". It's a policy that's doomed to failure as we've seen with US, Danish, and French activities in the high north.

I'm not saying we need a war footing up there, but we need something with teeth that can show up at the right place and time, and have the potential to put "a little stick about" should the need arise.
 
As someone once said, every country has an army â ” either its own or somebody else's. If we cannot protect the front door to North America, the Americans feel they have to, and I don't blame them. I don't look at it as an "Invasion of Sovereignty" more like a "Neighbourhood Watch" that we are to unskilled/ cheap/ ill equipped/ lazy to participate in. Nope, don't blame them a bit, and as long as it's them and not someone else surfacing there, so be it.
 
Ya, i agree my last post on this topic was stupid.  But I'm still wondering what the reason was that the Americans wanted to come here in the first place.
 
Ya, i agree my last post on this topic was stupid.  But I'm still wondering what the reason was that the Americans wanted to come here in the first place.

To prove that they can and that there is absolutely nothing we can do about. 
 
-  Well, one reason that I can see, because they can.  
-  Our defense under the water is to say the least, lacking.  
-  They seem to think they are allowed, and are entitled to the ability to do so, as they are THE superpower, and the "policing force".
-  In some cases they are still in Cold War mode using subs as their international fist.  They send subs into Russian waters as well.  
-  We dont do an outstanding job of protecting or watery/icy north so they are "assisting" us in that way.
Just a few very basic reasons, in my opinion, on top of Sheerins'
 
Like I said, someone's going to do it. It might as well be them. We really have no say in the matter as our milquetoast government hasn't got the cajones to do the job themselves.
 
I would prefer them lurking around up there more than the Russians, or the Chinese (not a racist comment, but one of the country, and views of their government).
They do it too, but the Americanas do it more.
The Americans, as of now, wish us no harm (directly). Where as the Chinese would be thinking "Hmmm, this would be a good way to get our foot in the door when the **** hits the fan" (in oriental voice).
 
I don't understand what the big deal is if Americans are patrolling our arctic waters - they are our allies! Is this going to be some stupid standoff like the Hans Island incident with the Danes? Just sounds like some lame Conservativ rhetoric trying to stoke up anger. Maybe they should have said please though! :dontpanic:
 
We should have bought nuclear subs to be able to scout our waters ourselves, instead of getting those run down British ones.  I think our government looked for a band aid solution and found it.
 
From the source that S_Baker provided:
All archipelagic waters within the outermost islands of an archipelagic state like Indonesia or the Philippines are also considered internal waters.
Should this also not apply to Canada as well?
 
Canada has a long history of protesting incursions into the Arctic, but not doing anything about it. The issue allows the PM to make his "get tough with the Yankees" speech to keep the anti-American crowd Liberal rather than NDP, but other than that....

Should so called Global Warming allow ships to transit the Northwest passage, look for the first effective Canadian response (i.e. ability to have a physical presence and take active measures) to come AFTER the first Chinese or Korean container ship runs aground and dumps oil into the Arctic Ocean....
 
I was reading up on a few things and though this was interesting and I found myself asking myself even more questions a seen at the end of my post.

In the reproduction of the 1935 US Plan for Invasion of Canada
http://www.glasnost.de/hist/usa/1935invasion.html

It mentions "Its northern boundary crosses the Arctic archipelago"

This bring up two points... if anyone thinks these a revelant and worth discussing.
- What is meant by crosses ? Fully encompassing the arctic Archipelago ?
- If all archipelagic waters are considered internal waters, as previously stated, would this indicate the US recognition in 1935 that the Northwest passage is indeed Canadian Waters ?


Is this even revelant ? How would a international court rule, what information would they use ? That the area was transfered from British colonial authority to the Dominion of Canada in 1894 ? What legal documents would they use, would showing examples of other countries in the past saying directly or indirectly that these waters are Canadian make a difference ?
 
Reproduced under the Fair dealings Act.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1155470046623&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home
Harper vows defence of Arctic
Aug. 13, 2006. 10:55 PM
DENE MOORE
CANADIAN PRESS

IQALUIT, Nunavut — The world has taken notice of the vast economic potential of the Far North, and it is vital that Canada demonstrate its sovereignty over the rich waters off its Arctic coast, says Prime Minister Stephen Harper.
Harper returned Sunday from a short stay in the northernmost community in the world, the remote military outpost in Alert, Nunavut, on the northern tip of Ellesmere Island.
The remote base is the most visible sign of Canada’s sovereignty over waters up to 200 nautical miles off the northern coast, he said.

“Sovereignty over one’s territory is not a theoretical concept,” Harper told military personnel on the base Sunday. “It is earned and it is retained by being present, by having planes in the air, ships in the sea, and most importantly, boots on the ground.
“You either use it or you lose it.”
There are vast natural resources in the North and Canada is not the only nation to have noticed, Harper said.

“It’s no exaggeration to say that the need to assert our sovereignty and take action to protect our territorial integrity in the Arctic has never been more urgent,” the prime minister said during a speech in front of the Nunavut legislature on Saturday, the first day of his first visit to the northern territories.
A high-profile military exercise in the Beaufort Sea has just wrapped up, and another in the eastern Arctic, Operation Lancaster, is getting underway.

Harper said lax enforcement by previous governments allowed foreign vessels to enter those waters without the permission or even awareness of Canadian officials.
U.S. government vessels have made at least three incursions into the Northwest Passage without informing Canada, most recently in 1995, when a U.S. navy submarine traversed the waters.
Canada’s southern neighbour has not ratified the international Law of the Sea, which recognizes a 200-nautical-mile, or 370-kilometre, exclusive economic zone off a country’s coast.

“Any such voyage represents a potential threat to Canadian safety and security,” Harper said over the weekend. “We always need to know who is in our waters and why they are there.”
To that end, the Conservative government has promised increased military spending in the Far North, as well as a deep-sea port.

Some scientists believe that in as little as a decade, global warming could open the northern shipping route linking the Atlantic and Pacific oceans to year-round traffic.
While some nations would like the northern waters to be international, falling under the jurisdiction of no specific country, Harper said the Arctic is no different than the Atlantic or Pacific, where Canada’s 200-mile limit is undisputed.

There is also major potential for oil and gas exploitation in the Arctic offshore.
Nunavut Premier Paul Okalik welcomed Harper’s approach.
“It could have a major impact on our territory if there were unregulated shipping activity happening in the Northwest Passage,” Okalik said after meeting with Harper over the weekend. “We would have no way of controlling what took place if that were determined to be international waters. That’s a real concern.”

But the territory is just as interested in the infrastructure that could accompany an increased military presence.
“I’d love to see more infrastructure so we can stimulate our economy in terms of mineral development and oil and gas,” Okalik said.

Duane Smith, president of the Inuit Circumpolar Council, said the lack of a federal government presence in the past has made the region vulnerable to claims from other nations.
“It’s a large territory,” Smith said. “They have to demonstrate that Canada is using the area in the first place.”

But he urged Ottawa to balance military initiatives with social spending to ease the critical social issues facing the Inuit, a people whose presence in the Far North has maintained Canada’s claim to the territory.

 
I just heard a report that a Canadian group has been granted 5 year mineral & other exploration rights to the disputed Hans Island by the Federal government.

I know that small military expeditions from both Denmark & Canada have visited this very small barren rock in the past to "show the flag"

I wonder if this may cause some diplomatic incident with the Danes.
 
Here is a link to the CASR website with some interesting articles on the Canada/Denmark Arctic issue.

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/id-arcticviking.htm
 
No doubt it will cause frowns on the Danish side.

I find the continued concept of sovereignty in the Arctic fascinating.  Its been kicked around for years but until now no one has taken a stab at actually doing it. My biggest questions are "who is going to be the poor bastard posted there?" and "what is our operational readiness deadline"? 
 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060820.warcticc0820/BNStory/National/home
Forces' Arctic patrol more than just an exercise
BOB WEBER

Canadian Press

Dundas Harbour, Nunavut — Canadian soldiers, sailors, air crews and police officers gathered on one of the remotest points in the country on the weekend to project their nation's sovereignty over the Arctic into the future and pay tribute to those who guarded it in the past.

“It's an honour to be up here doing this,” said RCMP Const. David Lawson, brushing a coat of fresh white paint on the picket fence surrounding the graves of two brother officers who died 80 years ago while posted to this rocky shoreline high above the Arctic Circle.

The work crew was dispatched to Dundas Harbour on Devon Island as part of Operation Lancaster, the Navy's first mission to the disputed Northwest Passage in more than a generation.

Over the course of the 12-day exercise, soldiers landed on surf-pounded beaches and sailors fired across the bow of a Coast Guard icebreaker to practise boarding techniques. The frigate HMCS Montreal patrolled the crystalline waters with the smaller HMCS Goose Bay and Moncton while icebergs drifted majestically by in the near-24-hour daylight.

Aurora surveillance planes cruised overhead while a Griffin helicopter moved soldiers into observation posts along the waters Canada claims for itself.

But after the final fence post around the graves of Constable Victor Maisonneuve and Constable William Stephens had been reinforced and repainted, the manoeuvres grew briefly silent Saturday as members of all five participating services doffed their headgear in remembrance.

“We remember the goals and we remember the dedication that brought them to this place,” prayed navy chaplain John Finlayson. “As we remember their lives, we pledge ourselves also to work for justice, with integrity and with goodwill for all people.”

The grave restoration was a moving echo of the work the Forces are conducting in defence of Canada's disputed sovereignty over the Arctic waters, said Col. Chris Whitecross, commander of the military in the North.

“We're here for sovereignty,” she said. “These guys, the RCMP who were here back in the 1920s, they were here for sovereignty as well. Their mission was to be a foot on the ground to show the world that we are here.

“They were, in fact, pioneers of what we're doing.”

While Canada maintains it controls the seas around the High Arctic islands — including environmental regulation — countries such as the United States have long argued that they should be international waters.

Experts doubt the Northwest Passage will ever be free enough of ice to be a reliable commercial shipping channel. But several factors are combining to increase its shipping traffic.

High commodity and energy prices are making Arctic reserves economically feasible. New technology is increasing the ice capability of commercial ships.

And reduced sea ice has caused a mini-boom in Arctic tourism. Even Dundas Harbour's lonely graves saw visits from several cruise ships last week.

That's why Capt. Jonathan Hubble found himself dangling from a rope ladder over the side of the Montreal on Thursday night, hopping into a rubber motorboat and zooming over rough seas with a section of his fellow Van Doos to set up an observation post on the south side of the passage.

The landing was successful, but the surf swamped the boat on the steep beach. The soldiers were forced to stand waist-deep in the icy water to push the boat back into the sea while bailing it with their helmets.

“It was very, very cold,” Capt. Hubble deadpanned. “I would have bailed with my hands at that point.”

The soldiers then climbed a 20-metre headwall, changed into dry clothes and camped out overlooking Lancaster Sound. In the clear Arctic air, they could see Devon Island, 80 kilometres away across the passage.

“We like these experiences for the learning element, but we also like challenges,” Capt. Hubble said. “Pain is temporary, but stories are forever.”

That's why Cmdr. Paul Dempsey, captain of the Montreal, took his ship on high-speed manoeuvres in the middle of the sound.

The fleet Montreal effortlessly hit 28 knots, then heeled over in turns so tight that crew members were warned they might roll out of their bunks if they were trying to sleep. The ship stopped dead in a couple of hundred metres, then went faster in reverse than many water-skiing boats.

“It's the sports car of the navy,” said Cmdr. Dempsey, clearly proud.

With all its planned exercises so far completed with smooth co-ordination between the various services involved, Col. Whitecross is calling Operation Lancaster a success.

But its impact on the Forces might be better summed up by one of Montreal's seamen, who stood having a smoke on the ship's port deck watching the passing show of glaciated, rugged coastline and the slow promenade of icebergs.

“Gorgeous,” he said in a thick Newfoundland accent. “Makes you feel all Canadian.”

 
Interesting article - I would love to hear more about it when the guys get home!
 
Problems with the exercise:

Arctic exercise reveals military weaknesses
Getting Forces to work well together will take some time

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Canada/523691.html

A problem-plagued landing of soldiers on a remote northern coastline from a navy frigate showed that the goal of the three services being able to operate seamlessly is still a ways off.

Gen. Rick Hillier, chief of defence staff, has said he wants to reshape the Forces so that all branches are able to operate together smoothly and effectively.

"This is a new sort of operation for the navy," said Col. Chris Whitecross, commander of the military in the Arctic. "We don’t necessarily do it all that often in terms of taking folks off the ship and inserting them onto the land.".

As part of Operation Lancaster, the largest naval operation in the Northwest Passage in a generation, soldiers from the Quebec-based Van Doos regiment were to be deployed from the frigate HMCS Montreal. They were to set up an observation post on the Borden Peninsula on the south shore of the eastern gate of the passage.

However, getting the soldiers onto a small Zodiac by dangling them from a rope ladder over the side of the ship took hours longer than scheduled.

As well, heavy surf swamped the small boat when it landed on a steep, rocky coastline. The soldiers were forced to bail out with their helmets and stand waist- and chest-deep in the freezing water to push the craft back out to sea and cut loose ropes that had become entangled in the propeller.

"It was very, very cold," recalled Capt. Jonathan Hubble.

After climbing up a 20-metre headwall, the soldiers were then forced to set up their post kilometres from where they had planned. They were moved to the original post by Twin Otter, but the plane’s landing gear got stuck nearly half a metre deep in unexpected mud.

The Twin Otter remains at the observation post and won’t be able to move for weeks until the ground freezes up.

A helicopter finally picked up the soldiers from the peninsula...

More here:

Arctic blunders highlight military gap: Mired Twin Otter plane suggests Forces ill-equipped for northern manoeuvres
http://server09.densan.ca/archivenews/060822/edm/060822ak.htm

And a project to make new build Twotters:

Viking wants to revamp rugged Canadian aircraft
'Viable candidate for new manufacture,' CEO says

http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=dd2ff08d-e71b-4fec-b181-2ab79c201a7a&k=32291

Mark
Ottawa


 
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