• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty

  • Thread starter Thread starter mattoigta
  • Start date Start date
in the late 40s/early 50s Canada uproted Unuits from Quebec's northern coast and dropped em off on this place called "Grise Fiord" as part of a sovereignity campaign
You do know that "Grise Fjord" is Danish and means "Bay of Pigs"???  ???

He he... While it seems like Our Mighty Royal Fleet's crew   ;D won't be allowed to pull down the Canadian flag:
I have instructed the ship to sail there, but they will not go ashore tearing down (the Canadian) flag and replacing it with a new one
Therefore, I decided at an early stage of the issue over Hans Island that Denmark should submit a proposal to Canada to resume negotiations over Hans Island. I am very pleased that Canada has now accepted this proposal, and that I am to meet my Canadian counterpart in New York in connection with the UN General Assembly in September.
   However, this does not shake the Danish Government's deeply held conviction that Hans Island is part of Greenland and, consequently, Danish-Greenland territory. Naturally, there are good reasons for the Government to take action over something that at first sight might look like a small matter. Hans Island is part of Denmark and Greenland; it is part of our territory. To stand firm over one's territory - or to exercise sovereignty as international law experts call it - is altogether crucial to being an independent State. Therefore, the Government insists that we hold the valid arguments in connection with the issue of Hans Island. And therefore, we have every right to protest when the Canadian Minister of National Defence pays a visit to Hans Island without prior notification
Danish Foreign Minister Per Stig Møller

I can 100% sure guarantee You that a Danish flag WILL be raised on the Island. But it seems the   :cdn: will have to be there until the International Court of Justice in the Hague have decided! Unless You guys back down, ofcause!   ^-^
Denmark and Canada have agreed to re-open negotiations regarding the future of Hans Island. Denmark will immediately begin geological surveys in the area, and Per Stig Møller will meet his Canadian counterpart Pierre Pettigrew in New York in the middle of September. Should they fail to reach an agreement, both governments have agreed to submit the dispute to the International Court of Justice in the Hague.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Island

Would any of You guys travel 1000's of kilometers, just to sail right by your main objective??? http://www.navalhistory.dk/Danish/SoevaernsNyt/2005/HansOe2.htm

Oh... and am I mistaken when I say that July 13, 2005 was the first time Canadian Forces sat foot on Hans Island?

 
Holy F**K

didn't we all agree to stop yammering about this stupid little piece of rock!
 
Pfc_Norup said:
I can 100% sure guarantee You that a Danish flag WILL be raised on the Island. But it seems the   :cdn: will have to be there until the International Court of Justice in the Hague have decided! Unless You guys back down, ofcause!

;D ;D ;D
I would never personally guarantee the outcome of a political process...  ::)
 
Norup:

Remember to leave a case of Aalborg.  Its much better than that Gamel Dansk crap and it should be just about the right temperature by the time we go back to swap flags.

Skal.
 
Remember to leave a case of Aalborg.  Its much better than that Gamel Dansk crap
Hmm... It might be a little late but I'll see what I can do...  ::) 

Then we'll probably also trow in some real beers insted of the maple-light thing You guys are used to  ;)

I would never personally guarantee the outcome of a political process
It's not the political process I'm talking about. It's that they WILL make landfall and raise the Danish flag... But they will have to leave the Canadian flag where it is...
I don't know any Dane who would sail for 3 weeks just to abort 3 days before the objective, and still have to sail right by it!
 
Ahhh, as a Canadian of Danish decent, my loyalties are conflicting - WHAT DO I DO OVER HANS ISLAND?!?
 
This, from to-day's Globe and Mail is part of the solution.  See, also http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/17947/post-191790.html#msg191790 at the bottom of the 1st page of the attachment I discuss National Surveillance and Warning"In my personal opinion Polar Epsilon (see: http://www.isprs.org/publications/related/ISRSE/html/papers/1000.pdf ) is part (and, sadly, at $60 Million + only a very small part) of the solution.  An essentially static radar imaging system with 14 passes a day is a start, only a start.  We need space, surface and sub-surface sensors - active and passive - which will cover wide areas on a more frequent (maybe no more than, say (will arsed quesstimate every 15 minutes) basis.

However, BZ:  LCdr Quinn, MacDonald Dettwiler and to 'contracting out'.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050828.warcsat0828/BNStory/National/
Canada plans Arctic eye

BY STEPHEN THORNE

SUNDAY, AUGUST 28, 2005 UPDATED AT 8:22 PM EDT
CANADIAN PRESS

Ottawa - The federal government is looking up - way up - to assert Canada's increasingly threatened claim to Arctic sovereignty.

The Canadian Space Agency is buying $400-million worth of Arctic imagery from Richmond, B.C.-based MacDonald Dettwiler Associates, which owns the soon-to-be-launched Radarsat 2 polar orbiter.

The satellite, scheduled to be airborne next summer, is expected to operate over a seven-year lifespan, said navy Lt.-Cmdr. Robert Quinn, project director.

The federal investment is less than the cost of a new icebreaker - and the satellite can see in all weather, day or night, 365 days a year, Defence officials say.

Passing over the North Pole 14 times daily, recording images of ships, aircraft - even pollution - at a rate of 3,000 square kilometres per second, it will be the linchpin in the Canadian military's Project Polar Epsilon.

"Polar Epsilon is a transformational first step for Canada in using space to support the sovereignty and security of the Arctic region, including maritime security and continental defence together with the U.S.A. at the strategic level," say ministerial briefing notes obtained by The Canadian Press.

"Polar Epsilon has no connection to the U.S. ballistic missile defence program," say the documents, obtained through access to information.

Canada will build ground receiving stations near Halifax and Esquimalt, B.C., to process and relay the images.

It's part of an Arctic "offensive" the Canadian military has undertaken, beginning with an exercise called Operation Narwhal last year, stepped-up Ranger patrols and patrols by Canadian navy vessels.

While Aurora aircraft sorties over the Arctic continue, the military is also looking at unmanned pre-programmed or remote-controlled planes.

"No one sensor can conduct effective and complete surveillance of Canada's large area of interest," said Cmdr. Quinn, who wrote the briefing notes. "The best surveillance architecture is a number of sensors used in combination.

"The strengths of all of them outweigh the weaknesses of each one."

Vincent Rigby, director general of policy and planning at National Defence, said there's no direct military threat in the Arctic like that posed during the Cold War.

"Certainly, the Canadian Forces are not defending against hordes of Soviet bombers coming over the Arctic," said Mr. Rigby.

"The threat now is more broadly in the security and sovereignty realm."

Canada's dispute with Denmark over Hans Island could indicate an increase in territorial rows north of the 60th parallel.

Arctic sovereignty is becoming more coveted as global warming melts the ice and opens new areas for oil and mineral exploration, said Mr. Rigby.

He said the military is increasingly being called on as a result.

"We're looking at enhancing some of the capabilities," Mr. Rigby said in an interview.

Those capabilities are sorely in need of enhancement, said Tory defence critic Gordon O'Connor, who is currently on a northern fact-finding mission to help formulate his party's defence policy.

"Years ago, large numbers of our soldiers were trained in Arctic warfare. Very few of them can operate now in the Arctic," Mr. O'Connor said from his first stop in Whitehorse.

"The capability to look after the North has decayed over a number of years."

While Arctic-capable nuclear submarines would cost prohibitive billions, Ottawa should consider alternatives such as seafloor monitors, as NATO has done in the North Atlantic, he said.

Arctic sovereignty sparked controversy in 1985 when the U.S. Coast Guard icebreaker Polar Sea traversed the Northwest Passage without Ottawa's permission.

Washington eventually signed an agreement with Ottawa stating it would seek permission before navigating the passage again.

But the issue has never been resolved with a formal acknowledgment that the waters belong to Canada - a critical point as they are becoming passable during more months of the year, says Mr. O'Connor.

The dispute over Hans Island erupted anew when Defence Minister Bill Graham visited the 1.3-kilometre windswept rock in July.

The island in the Kennedy Channel between Greenland and Ellesmere Island was discovered by the British, ceded to Canada at Confederation, and was briefly home to a Canadian scientific station in the 1940s. It is listed as part of Nunavut in the National Geographic Atlas.

Foreign Affairs Minister Pierre Pettigrew will meet with his Danish counterpart next month, 21 years after a Danish minister, Tom Hoeyem, caused a stir when he visited Hans Island.

Mr. Hoeyem raised the Danish flag, buried a bottle of brandy and left a note saying Welcome to Denmark. Danish ships or military officers have visited Hans Island five times in the last 17 years.

Canadian geological researchers have landed once, and before Mr. Graham's visit a squad of Canadian soldiers hoisted the Maple Leaf and built an Inukshuk, a traditional Inuit stone marker.

© Copyright 2005 Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc. All Rights Reserved.
 
MCG said:
I'd rather see a hockey rink placed in the middle of the island.   We could have an annual tournament, and the winner would fly thier flag for the year.   ;D




Good idea -   Canada met Denmanrk in the 1946(?) World Hockey Championship, Canada won 43 - 0.   Hans over Hans Island boys   ;D :cdn:.

MM
 
Edward Campbell<
However, BZ:  LCdr Quinn, MacDonald Dettwiler and to 'contracting out'.
>

Unlike the US, the CF cannot afford to be the leader in developing cutting-edge technology
like Radarsat. The contracting out of some services is a viable option in this case, though, as
mentioned its just part of the solution.  The Radarsat technology is quite impressive.

For those interested. CFS Alert won the Boxtop1 and BoxTop2 Olympics for 2005.  Yay for us!
 
I think that the CF should work with the coast gaurd and arm their ice breakers or at least make them capable to carry wapons if needed. as well as setting up passive survailence of our northern teritory. the sovernty of our north is most likely going to be challenged in the near future mainly becuase of the polar ice caps melting and the NWP becoming accesable all year round! :cdn:
 
kipper said:
I think that the CF should work with the coast gaurd and arm their ice breakers or at least make them capable to carry wapons if needed. as well as setting up passive survailence of our northern teritory. the sovernty of our north is most likely going to be challenged in the near future mainly becuase of the polar ice caps melting and the NWP becoming accesable all year round! :cdn:

Based on what I've seen of the Coast Guard fleet in my time working with them, I'm afraid that really isn't a viable option.  The navy is reluctant to orient itself towards domestic patrol duties because it's concerned that the Task Group focus will diminish and the general public thinks that our Coast Guard should be like the US Coast Guard with respect to sovereignty enforcement, but the organizations are far, far different.  At the risk of sounding condescending, the Coast Guard is really more of a "Coast Janitor" - they maintain the navigation equipment, direct vessel traffic, break ice and do search-and-resuce. but they really don't have the training or infrastructure to employ force.  It is a very, very civilian organization that simply doesn't have training in force employment - to give it that capability would require a complete overhaul of the force and at least a decade of training and culture change.

Sovereignty patrol has always been the purvue of the navy in Canada and, for better or worse, will probably stay that way in the short-to-medium term.  Certainly the CG will be part of the organization that's forming around the new maritime MSOCs, but don't expect them to take a lead.
 
Perhaps the Canadian Coast Guard should be absorbed by the Naval Reserve.  Comments?

Tom
 
MCG said:
So, how is that guarantee coming along?
It seems there are some Danes who would sail for 3 weeks just to abort 3 days before the objective, and still have to sail right by it!
Wadda ya know, looks like even in Denmark, the govt is still in charge !!!   ;)
 
Hmm... no solution yet... http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Indland/2005/09/19/203413.htm
Danish
..Danmark og Canada er blevet enige om, at de stadig er uenige..
..da den danske udenrigsminister Per Stig Møller mødtes med den canadiske udenrigsminister Pierre Pettigrew under FN's Generalforsamling i New York
English
..Denmark and Canada agrees to still disagree..
..when the Danish foreign minister Per Stig Møller met with the Canadian foreign minister Pierre Pettigrew under the UN's Generalasembly in New York

But! http://www.jp.dk/indland/artikel:aid=3246948
Danish
Men udenrigsministeren kunne efter mødet berette, at det canadiske flag nu er blæst omkuld
English
But the foreign minister could after the meeting confirm that the Canadian flag is now blown down

Video from Hans Island ( 2003 ) http://forsvaret.dk/SOK/Videoklip/Flaghejsning.htm

Memoirs of Hans Hendrik, the Danish arctic traveller http://ve.tpl.toronto.on.ca/frozen_ocean/north_hendrik_memoirs.htm

I still say cut it in half... That way staff from the worlds most Northern Timmy Hortons could visit the worlds most Northern Legoland. And vice versa!
 
TCBF said:
Perhaps the Canadian Coast Guard should be absorbed by the Naval Reserve.  Comments?
There wouldn't be much point to integrating the Coast Guard and the Navy.  The Coast Guard does a good job of what it does - why force it to adapt to the Navy and vice versa?  If you mean the reserves should take the lead in coastal surveillance, then I do agree with you.  In reality that's already happening - Kingston class ships manned by reservists have been the primary means of sovereignty patrol for many years, and the new reserve-only Maritime Intelligence trade has an integral role to play with the new MSOCs and at both coastal intelligence centers in terms of collating the domestic Recognized Maritime Picture.  Ultimately it will always be the RCMP going out and arresting the bad guys, whether they carried by a Coast Guard ship or a Navy ship, but they will be directed by intelligence gathered from many sources and put compiled by reservists.
 
Canada, Denmark agree to disagree over tiny Arctic island
Countries see possible future shipping, fishing value in disputed territory

Jim Bronskill
The Canadian Press
September 19, 2005


OTTAWA -- Canada and Denmark will call a truce today in the war of words over disputed Hans Island, a patch of Arctic rock each country claims as its own.

Insiders say Foreign Affairs Minister Pierre Pettigrew and his Danish counterpart, Per Stig Moller, plan to announce in New York that the two countries will draft a protocol for managing their dealings over the tiny island.

The ministers are at the United Nations for the organization's 60th-anniversary summit.

They had previously signalled plans to discuss the Hans Island issue on the summit sidelines. But officials of the two countries have since arrived at an agreement intended to contain -- if not immediately resolve -- the territorial quarrel.

Neither Canada nor Denmark intends to renounce its claim to sovereignty over the windswept outcrop, meaning they have effectively agreed to disagree about ownership.

Uninhabited Hans Island, the size of several city blocks, sits in the Kennedy Channel of Nares Strait between Canada's Ellesmere Island and Greenland, which is controlled by Denmark.

The longstanding dispute now moves from the political arena to the realm of bureaucrats, who will develop a set of mutually agreed rules.

Defence Minister Bill Graham rankled Danish officials by making an unannounced stop on Hans Island during a trip to the Arctic in July. The visit, which received considerable attention in the Canadian media, touched off a diplomatic dustup between the NATO allies.

The Danish government made it clear to Canada's ambassador in Copenhagen that it frowned upon Graham's move.

In a similar vein, Canada had formally protested the planting of Danish flags on Hans Island in 1984, 1988 and 2004.

One source close to the negotiations said the disagreement is solely about national sovereignty.

Canada insists the quarrel is not about the surrounding waters, noting the boundaries of the continental shelf between Ellesmere Island and Greenland were agreed upon in 1973.

There has been widespread speculation, however, that there is much more at stake -- such as claims over northern fishing grounds or future access to the Northwest Passage, particularly should global warming make the route more viable.

Earlier this month, Moller told the Danish parliament's foreign policy committee he expected a peaceful resolution to the disagreement with Canada.

Moller noted during the committee hearing that a Canadian flag hoisted on the island had been knocked down by the bitter winds.

"How do I know that? We're monitoring the island, of course. It's a part of Danish territory."

Hans rock fight goes on -- nicely
The Canadian Press
Tuesday, September 20, 2005


UNITED NATIONS - Canada and Denmark, still deadlocked over Hans Island, pledged Monday to behave like mature countries as they try to resolve the dispute over the speck of Arctic rock claimed by both sides.

"We have agreed this morning that we would both inform one another of any activity we would do around Hans Island," Foreign Affairs Minister Pierre Pettigrew said after meeting for an hour with his Danish counterpart, Per Stig Moeller in New York.

"We will show restraint in order to avoid unnecessary incidents and escalation," the Danish minister said.

Visits to the uninhabited island by personnel from the two sides, including an unannounced drop-in by Defence Minister Bill Graham in July, have stirred diplomatic protests between the two capitals over the years.

Hans Island, only several city blocks in size, is between Canada's Ellesmere Island and Danish-controlled Greenland.

The two ministers agreed to have their officials come up with recommendations on how to "put this issue behind us," Pettigrew said.
 
..Danish-controlled Greenland..
What? :o That's totally offensive! Greenland is a Danish island and thereby Denmark!... just like Hans Island ;D
http://mrdenmark.blogspot.com/


A joint satement from US-controlled New York
http://www.rejsernu.dk/shownews.php?id=6108&PHPSESSID=a173ea14bd9e2579b856a819f7219e6a
JOINT STATEMENT

SEPTEMBER 19, 2005, NEW YORK

We, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Canada, Pierre S. Pettigrew, and the Minister for Foreign Affairs of Denmark, Per Stig Møller, met today, September 19, 2005, in the margins of the United Nations General Assembly, in New York, to reaffirm our excellent, long-standing bilateral relations as friends, allies and Arctic neighbours. The Danish Minister for Foreign Affairs was accompanied by the Deputy Premier of Greenland, Josef Motzfeldt. Mr. Larry Bagnell, Member of Parliament for the Yukon, accompanied Minister Pettigrew.

Together, we reviewed many of the issues which will be addressed at this General Assembly and on which we are close partners, including climate change, effective multilateralism, transatlantic relations, counter-terrorism, Afghanistan, and the Middle East. We also took note of the upcoming 60th anniversary this December of the establishment of our diplomatic relations.

We have much in common, and we have worked together over many years in advancing the welfare of the Arctic region and its peoples. Through the Arctic Council and other means, we already collaborate closely on challenges facing the Arctic and the North, such as climate change, resource extraction and transport. We also expressed our satisfaction at the recent launch of our joint project to map the seabed of the Arctic Ocean.

We acknowledge that we hold very different views on the question of the sovereignty of Hans Island. This is a territorial dispute which has persisted since the early 1970s, when agreement was reached on the maritime boundary between Canada and Greenland. We underscore that this issue relates only to the island as such, and has no impact on that agreement.

Firmly committed as we are to the peaceful resolution of disputes, including territorial disputes, we consistently support this principle here at the United Nations, and around the world. To this end, we will continue our efforts to reach a long-term solution to the Hans Island dispute. Our officials will meet again in the near future to discuss ways to resolve the matter, and will report back to Ministers on their progress.

While we pursue these efforts, we have decided that, without prejudice to our respective legal claims, we will inform each other of activities related to Hans Island. Likewise, all contact by either side with Hans Island will be carried out in a low key and restrained manner.

We will continue to pursue our common goal of ensuring the sustainable development of the Arctic region to the benefit of all, and in the tradition of cooperation in the region between our scientists we will explore the feasibility of joint scientific projects on or in the area of Hans Island. Such projects might fall within the research being planned in the context of the International Polar Year 2007-08.

So now there's no flags raised on the island. And the Island will be almost impossible to reach for the next 9 months. Canada is buying satelites and denmark is buying new ships...
Is this the beginning of a small ( very small ) new cold ( very cold ) war? ::)
 
Pfc_Norup, I'd recommend you visit Thule AFB sometime.  Walk up along the ridges towards
the water and look out.  This will provide enough perspective to understand how ridiculous
the Hans Island issue is due to the close proximity of Ellesmere Island and Greenland.  The
strait isn't that wide.  Anything that occurs in the region will effect both countries from
multi-natonal resource gathering to soverignty incursions.  This may be a concern of both
parties due to the width of the strait and a possible marine territorial control zone around the
island establishd by the country that controls it.  This doesn't lead to a cold war, but definitely
we can see both governments are actively discussing the larger issue.  Also, Hans Island isn't
really a rock.  Its more like a mound of gravel.
 
So Bert, you are saying that this mound of gravel may in fact be a "Navigational Hazard"?  Perhaps we should get together with Denmark and the rest of NATO and have a Joint Exercise where we mine the Island and blow it up in order to clear the Channel for shipping.  ;D
 
Back
Top