Coolest WW 2 plane (split from F-35 thread)

[Edward Campbell]

Also liking it because one in ten were built in my back yard.

The story of Elsie MacGill and her husband, Bill Soulsby, is however, instructive on the subject of military procurement. That MacGill was an excellent manager is beyond question. The Hurricane output of the CC&F plant at Fort William, now Thunder Bay, was nothing short of phenomenal, in both quality and quantity, and a lot of that was due to her organizational ability and engineering imagination. But her experience with Curtiss-Wright, with the Curtiss SB2C Helldiver shows what goes wrong when the Operational Requirement is not fixed before going to contract: the customer, the US Navy, never really knew what it wanted and so the aircraft was a failure, not even a brilliant engineering manager, which MacGill certainly was, could rescue it.. (MacGill and Soulsby worked together and were, reputedly, fired for having an (premarital?) affair (how quaint!) but it is just as likely that they were scapegoated for bad management in Washington.)

 

[NavyShooter]

My favorite would have to be the Lancaster.

Honourable mention to the Beaufighter that my Great Uncle flew in the war  with 404 Sqn.

Followup on the Taranto Raid with the Swordfish is that its likely to have had impact on the Japanese plans at Pearl Harbour, so it argueably had a HUGEimpact on the war  in terms of crippling the Italian fleet, while helping to bring in the US..

 

[FAL]

The Hawker Typhoon, in camo and invasion stripes. Other planes were capable in different areas, but for me, the closest thing in my mind and heart to a flying tank was the Typhoon. That big chin cowling, thick wings, and rockets for supporting the grunts by ventilating Tigers. Ach. It's like a powerlifter with wings.

 

[a_majoor]

Although it was a case of "too little, too late", I am a fan of the German jet aircraft of the very late war period. The Arado 234 "Blitz" bomber was especially clean lined and functional, and has that special beauty reserved for finely crafted tools:

 

[Old Sweat]

The Hawker Typhoon, in camo and invasion stripes. Other planes were capable in different areas, but for me, the closest thing in my mind and heart to a flying tank was the Typhoon. That big chin cowling, thick wings, and rockets for supporting the grunts by ventilating Tigers. Ach. It's like a powerlifter with wings.

The Typhoon was indeed an imposing ground attack aircraft, especially against troops and vehicles. Its record against tanks, including Tigers, was despite the RAF claims, not very good at all. One figure I recall was 5% probability of achieving a kill on an individual Panzer. Its rockets were horribly inaccurate and perhaps more kills were made by its cannons. Try googling Tiger losses in Normandy and you will be able to examine several different sites that discuss the matter.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The Typhoon was indeed an imposing ground attack aircraft, especially against troops and vehicles. Its record against tanks, including Tigers, was despite the RAF claims, not very good at all. One figure I recall was 5% probability of achieving a kill on an individual Panzer. Its rockets were horribly inaccurate and perhaps more kills were made by its cannons. Try googling Tiger losses in Normandy and you will be able to examine several different sites that discuss the matter.

This is an excellent analysis of 2 TAF's effectiveness in the Normandy campaign i.e., not very, but not all their fault

Bloody Brylcreem jobs, slacking again….  ;D



2nd TAF and the Normandy Campaign:
Controversy and Under-developed Doctrine

A more recent body of scholarly literature has grown up, dedicated to "de-bunking" some of the more over-blown
claims for air power in Normandy." So where does the truth lie? What was the effect of Allied air power on the Germans in Normandy?

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/s4/f2/dsk2/ftp03/MQ50093.pdf

 

[Old Sweat]

This is an excellent analysis of 2 TAF's effectiveness in the Normandy campaign i.e., not very, but not all their fault

Bloody Brylcreem jobs, slacking again….  ;D



2nd TAF and the Normandy Campaign:
Controversy and Under-developed Doctrine

A more recent body of scholarly literature has grown up, dedicated to "de-bunking" some of the more over-blown
claims for air power in Normandy." So where does the truth lie? What was the effect of Allied air power on the Germans in Normandy?

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/s4/f2/dsk2/ftp03/MQ50093.pdf

I know I emailed back and forth considerably with the author during the preparation of my book on Totalize and I think I also cited his thesis.

Much of the challenge is that unlike the Germans and the Soviets, the British did not develop a ground attack aircraft and treated it as something real pilots did not do for much of the war. The Comd 2 TAF also hated Montgomery after working with him in North Africa and tended to want to go his own way to assert the independence of the RAF.

Back to sexy airplanes.

 

[larry Strong]

The Typhoon was indeed an imposing ground attack aircraft, especially against troops and vehicles. Its record against tanks, including Tigers, was despite the RAF claims, not very good at all. One figure I recall was 5% probability of achieving a kill on an individual Panzer. Its rockets were horribly inaccurate and perhaps more kills were made by its cannons. Try googling Tiger losses in Normandy and you will be able to examine several different sites that discuss the matter.

Been reading the same about the Sturmovik as well.



Larry

 

[jollyjacktar]

I'll put this one forward,  the Dornier Do 335 Arrow or Aardvark as it was known to the Allies.  This the only surviving example, it's cool.

 

[OldSolduer]

If I were a pilot this is the one I'd love to fly.

 

[old medic]

No idea why, but one I like and not mentioned yet is the beaufighter.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auHYZrNK9wk

 

[jollyjacktar]

My dad's cousin Ken flew Mossies and when Korea came up he and other  Mossies vets were brought back to fly the first jets as they were the only one's who were used to the high speeds.  The kids were scared initially.  Ken was an interesting guy to talk to.

 

[TCBF]

Been reading the same about the Sturmovik as well.

Larry

- To be fair, I don't think anyone back then seriously thought they would knock out a lot of tanks from the sky. All that was needed was to knock out the trucks, trains, and horse-drawn wagons that were used to sustain the enemy field force. Knock out re-supply, and the tanks aren't of much use offensively. You can tell your soldiers that you are knocking out lots of tanks to boost their morale - it doesn't need to be true to be effective.

 

[quadrapiper]

- To be fair, I don't think anyone back then seriously thought they would knock out a lot of tanks from the sky. All that was needed was to knock out the trucks, trains, and horse-drawn wagons that were used to sustain the enemy field force. Knock out re-supply, and the tanks aren't of much use offensively. You can tell your soldiers that you are knocking out lots of tanks to boost their morale - it doesn't need to be true to be effective.

Wonder how much of an effect the possibility of a tank-killing aircraft had on German tactics, both on the part of individual crews and further up the line?

 

[a_majoor]

While in overall terms tank busting by aircraft was quite difficult, the threat was effective enough to force the Germans to essentially hide in the woods during the day and only move at night. Looking at late war pictures, you often see fairly high levels of camouflage as well, including the rather odd looking "dapple" pattern paint jobs and lots of branches and foliage tied to the tanks.

 

[FAL]

Wonder how much of an effect the possibility of a tank-killing aircraft had on German tactics, both on the part of individual crews and further up the line?

If the ratio of successful attacks was as low as quoted above, maybe the best effect was the psychological effect.

 

[OldSolduer]

My dad's cousin Ken flew Mossies and when Korea came up he and other  Mossies vets were brought back to fly the first jets as they were the only one's who were used to the high speeds.  The kids were scared initially.  Ken was an interesting guy to talk to.

I have heard that the Pathfinder Mosquitoes would fly in complete darkness at low level and drop flares for the bomber stream. Incredible.

 

[dimsum]

I have heard that the Pathfinder Mosquitoes would fly in complete darkness at low level and drop flares for the bomber stream. Incredible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathfinder_%28RAF%29#Tactics

"As the war wore on, the role of "Master Bomber" was introduced. This was an idea that had been used by Guy Gibson in the Dam Busters raid. Bennett wanted to lead raids but was denied operational flying as Harris was not prepared to risk losing him. The appointed Pathfinder (usually an experienced senior officer) circled the target, broadcasting radio instructions to both Pathfinders and Main Force aircraft, correcting aiming points and generally co-ordinating the attack."

So, the Master Bomber and his Pathfinder crew actually stuck around dodging flak until the entire bombing run was complete.  Geez.

 

[OldSolduer]

And to think they did all this without GPS and the gadgets they have today.

 

[daftandbarmy]

While in overall terms tank busting by aircraft was quite difficult, the threat was effective enough to force the Germans to essentially hide in the woods during the day and only move at night. Looking at late war pictures, you often see fairly high levels of camouflage as well, including the rather odd looking "dapple" pattern paint jobs and lots of branches and foliage tied to the tanks.

Seemed pretty routine for this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Ulrich_Rudel

'Stuka Pilot' is an excellent book by the way.