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Controversial vehicle - upsets residents

gcclarke said:
Honestly, no. I would not say there is a difference. A memorial needs to look like it's a memorial, not a vehicle.

Does it though? Couldn't either be effective? Or both be effective?

I took my (young) kids for a stroll in a park a few weeks ago.

In that park, there's a rather large howitzer, and we decided it was a good place to sit down, eat ice cream and pick dandelions.

While were there, they asked what it (the howitzer) was.

I did my best to explain in terms a preschooler could understand, and more importantly, got to tell him about a few of their great-great-uncles,who had fought through europe with said howitzer.

Had it been some other sort of "memorial", the kids probably wouldn't have been curious, we wouldn't have sat down to eat ice cream, and we wouldn't have had that conversation.

Having that tangible connection to the past though made for a very effective memorial.
 
Just a small nuance to gcclarke's last post: It is cenotaphs we are to salute, not "memorials". There is a difference. You can have cenotaphs with or without memorials made of vehicles around them - but only salute the cenotaphs.

I used to have to do that, as an illustration, whenever I crossed the Place du Canada park in Montreal on my way to and from the bus depot: You have a cenotaph, and on either sides, a 40-pounder from WWII and a gun mount and gun from the Boer war. You salute the cenotaph, not the guns, and without the cenotaph's presence, you wouldn't salute at all. 
 
[quote author=gcclarke]
Honestly, no. I would not say there is a difference. A memorial needs to look like it's a memorial, not a vehicle. It needs to be clear at first (or at least second) glance that the purpose of the object is to commemorate the dead. Parts of vehicles or vehicles themselves can be incorporated into memorials, sure. Props, anchors, etc. Or, say, depictions of vehicles. Something like a statue depicting the burnt out husk of a tank could do the trick. Or this unique memorial in Lebanon.
But just the vehicles themselves, even if with a few plaques, or in a park with other memorials? No, I don't think that's effectively serving the purpose.[/quote]

Fair enough. But you posted a picture of a monument [Hope for Peace Monument  made to celebrate the end of the Lebanese Civil War in 1990] Not a memorial.

Maybe it's semantics.
Monument
A monument is a type of - usually three-dimensional - structure that was explicitly created to commemorate a person or event, or which has become relevant to a social group as a part of their remembrance of historic times or cultural heritage, due to its artistic, historical, political, technical or architectural importance. Examples of monuments include statues, (war) memorials, historical buildings, archeological sites, and cultural assets. If there is a public interest in its preservation, a monument can for example be listed as a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

Memorial

A memorial is an object which serves as a focus for memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event. Popular forms of memorials include landmark objects or art objects such as sculptures, statues or fountains, and even entire parks.

The whole park is a memorial because it's literally designated a memorial park. It serves as a focus to remember the members of town who died in various conflicts.

When you look at the items placed in the park it's very hard to not recognize that it's a memorial park. The cougar is a more modern addition which can be said to easily reflect a memorial to our generation including those passing away in training during the cold war and on peacekeeping operations.


I think Scott nailed it perfectly. The majority of people don't have a problem with it. It's a select few in town who are bothered by it. Of course the media thrives on outrage so they'll pick up on their complaints.

I have a feeling the same people opposed to the vehicle going up in town are of the same mindset of the people wanting to tear down various statues- and I think that has to do with the Liberal arts programs proximity.


I mean, let's put it this way: we're all supposed to salute war memorials, right? I expect said memorials to be designed in a manner that I can actually tell when approaching them that they are war memorials, rather than being expected to go up and read every plaque, to be able to tell the difference between this vehicle that's supposedly a memorial and this other one that's just there to look cool.
Memorial parks are a thing though. You can tell you're approaching it because there's a sign that will say "memorial park". I'm not sure if that means you should salute every plaque, just salute the sign or walk around in the salute position.

Form should follow function. Memorials that aren't recognizable as such are failing to attain their purported goal.
I think Not a Sig Op brings up a great point. Plaques and little write ups are easy to walk past and miss or not really interest kids or young adults.
Full size decommissioned vehicles are a tangible, very clear reminders of what our service members have employed at home and abroad in order to give the people walking around the park the freedoms they're enjoying.


My last take on the issue is that if decommissioned armored vehicles upset people (in a memorial park) they should try getting blown up in one and see how that feels. Everyone in Canada loves their freedoms- not everyone is willing to pay for them though. Hopefully the town decides to put it up.

And then add a LAV, Seaking and something else Navy-ish  ;D
 
Jarnhamar said:
And then add a LAV, Seaking and something else Navy-ish  ;D

And one of these. Complete with water tank trailer. Their Parks Dept. can keep it re-filled with cold, fresh drinking water for when their kids get de-hydrated from playing on these long, hot summer days.  :)

 

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mariomike said:
And one of these. Complete with water tank trailer. Their Parks Dept. can keep it re-filled with cold, fresh drinking water for when their kids get de-hydrated from playing on these long, hot summer days.  :)

To heck with that... I want one of those for my unit to use on exercise!
 
Halifax Tar said:
I agree with your statement as a whole; but I feel the need to point out that we do not have "Free Speech" in this country.  We have freedom of expression.  Pedantic, it could be argued.  But we need to learn to distance ourselves and our rights from those of our southern neighbors.

It could be argued that we, in fact, have nothing like free speech.

Your right we have "freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication"

Which I would argue is much more absolute as it covers not only speech, but other forms and modes of communications such as writings, art, internet, tv, radio, etc.
 
July 2, 2019

Hussars opt to rescind gift of armoured military vehicle to Sackville, N.B.
https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/mobile/hussars-opt-to-rescind-gift-of-armoured-military-vehicle-to-sackville-n-b-1.4491662?cache=yes?clipId=104062
In a letter addressed to the town of Sackville, the 8th Canadian Hussars decided to withdraw their donation of an armoured vehicle.
 
For reference to the discussion,

Mohawk Grand Chief speaks out against installing Cougar in Sackville’s Memorial Park
https://warktimes.com/2019/07/05/mohawk-grand-chief-speaks-out-against-installing-cougar-in-sackvilles-memorial-park/
The Grand Chief of the Mohawk First Nation at Kanesatake, Quebec is urging the 8th Canadian Hussars to stand by its decision to withdraw the gift of a Cougar armoured personnel carrier for display in Sackville’s Memorial Park.
 
Lets not forget "cougar" is a derogatory term for older women. The name of this vehicle is problematic and misogynistic and has no place in a memorial park.
 
See also,
https://www.sackvilletribunepost.com/news/local/reactions-mixed-over-cougar-controversy-329715/

SACKVILLE, N.B. —  Scott Timpa is no stranger to military vehicles. Having served over a decade in the Canadian Army, Timpa said he spent five years in the back of a Light Armoured Vehicle Three (LAV 3) during his years as an infantry soldier.

And while these types of armoured vehicles incite mixed feelings for Timpa, a medically-retired, disabled veteran, most of those emotions are not good ones.

“As much as I loved the LAV 3, every time I see a military vehicle like it such as a Cougar, it triggers me and I can’t stop that,” said Timpa.

Timpa, who suffers from severe post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), said although armoured vehicles provide safety and security to the armed forces, he also recalls how “for many of my brothers and sisters, these vehicles also became death traps on the streets of Kandahar, easy prey for the Taliban and a well-placed bomb.”

“I hear the sounds of the cannons, I smell the exhaust fumes, the dust, the grease and I think about the people I knew who were killed in them,” he said. “I’ve seen what a bomb blast does to a human body if you happen to be sitting inside one of these things. I can smell and taste the blood and I probably always will. It’s awful.”

Timpa said he has made Sackville his home because there is no military base here and he wanted to live in a small peaceful town for his mental health.

“When I lived in Halifax, it was a constant trigger seeing the navy ships in the harbour, all the military personnel walking around in uniforms or military aircraft constantly flying overhead.”

He said placing a vehicle such as the Cougar in Memorial Park will only serve as a recruiting tool for young people to want to join the military, at a time when the federal government is not living up to its obligations of caring for injured soldiers and disabled veterans.

The size of the Cougar was also a factor for those opposing its placement in Memorial Park, with many saying that the “massive machine” would dwarf the other monuments and minimize the Cenotaph’s central role in the park.

Jarnhamar said:
Lets not forget "cougar" is a derogatory term for older women.

Not necessarily derogatory. Sometimes, complimentary,  :)
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cougar

 
Ever since the decision was made to withdraw the donation, a petition has surfaced online with the signatures of more than 1,000 people hoping that the armoured vehicle will be reconsidered.

SACKVILLE Population
(2016)
• Total5,331
 
The story has been reported across Canada. Anyone on the internet can sign the petition,
https://www.change.org/p/residents-of-the-town-of-sackville-bring-the-cougar-to-sackville

It's up to their municipal taxpayers to decide.

"sign an agreement exempting the Department of National Defence from liability for any injuries associated with the display."

That's what caught my eye.



 
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