chin ups with added weight

[Duotone81]

Originally posted by Garry:
[qb] If you want cardiovascular strength, then low weights and hi reps rule.

[/qb]

I used to have that kind of thinking until I discovered the benefits of super-setting. It takes the workout to a whole new level. You increase your heart rate substantially compared to a regular set but you don‘t sacrifice the workout by not going to your full potential and really maxing out your muscles.

Super-setting was a real wake up call for me because up until I implemented the new routines I thought I was in great shape. Make your next bi day a super-setting one, then hop in the treadmill and run 3.5 miles. Try not to puke however because it‘s just bad gym etiquette.

 

[Garry]

Hi Graham,

Did would be more accurate.

While working out for the bodybuilding competitions (keep in mind, I was a training partner, didn‘t compete) the cardio training involved rowing machine, alternating step machine/running, and hi rep abdominal exercises. We‘d row for half an hour, then (swapping machines) run or step for another half hour. Quick break, then hit the weights. The only cardio exercises we did in the weight room were crunches. We did 650 crunches every day except "ab day". Ab day was a two hour abdominal ex, done once a week.

Our cycle was based on a 5 day work out.

Reps were done to failure, every time. We aimed for first set reps of 8 max, and last set was down to one or two reps with heaviest weights. Averaged about 2 hours a day in the weight room.

Our cardio reps (if you could call them that) were performed once every two weeks, where we‘d perform our normal sets, then do a final set with medium weight. As we approached failure on the last set, we‘d shorten the length of movement until failure, then go back to a full lentgh movement, with spotter assistance to complete several more reps. # of reps was based on spotter "feel" (and tended to get a litle brutal

A Bud who was big into martial arts was much more tuned into the low weights high reps concept, and tended to use sets of 15 reps for all but legs, where he used sets of 30. Weight was set to allow the desired number of reps, with failure starting to approach as he finished. He didn‘t have the mucle mass, but he was incredibly strong.

One of the "neatest" work out‘s I‘ve seen was by an incredibly strong, but lean man, who also believed in high rep work outs. He alternated between more normal routines, but once a month would take a week break, and go heavy. His entire routine for the week consisted of two days in the gym, where he‘d load up a bar with an incredibly heavy weight, place it on the squat rack, and lift (from just under waist high) and hold for as long as he could. The bar was merely held, straight arm, at waist height. Three reps of one, and he was done for the day. Often had to kneel in place after the rep until he stopped shaking. Unusual, but worked very well for him.

There are a huge number of ways to exercise, and as you correctly pointed out you must consider a balanced approach. Stabilising muscles cannot be ignored, and specifically targeting muscle groups for attention will be of great benefit.

Strict form will prevent injury, and allow the most gain.

Cheers- Gary

 

[pte anthony]

Super setting or high reps low weight while keeping proper posture and technique and trying to cut the time on the previous workouts with minimal time between sets is great for increasing cardivascular endurance. As for Chin ups with weights dont do them until you are comfortable with sets of 15 to 20 (every ones plateau is different) I have began them about two months with 5lbs and now do them with 20lbs of leg weights and can easily do sets of 8 to 10. I see people at my gym doing them with a weight belt and two 25lbs attached (roid bags). Again I dont advise doing chin ups with weights unless you have a very strict workout regime and even then watch for signs of RSI. Doutone 81 I like that pyramid workout I am gonna incorporate that into my workout routines for sure. :soldier:

 

[GrahamD]

I see.

I was just thrown by your use of the term "cardiovascular strength" in reference to weight training.

I think the term that would be more appropriate would be "muscular endurance" training. High repetitions with a low amount weight = endurance training. Even with low weight the max number of reps should not be exceedingly high. Repetetive strain injury is an extremely common result of doing too many repetitions.

Cardiovascular exercise typically begins after about 15 minutes of continuous exercise, as I‘m sure you know, and does not really require "weight". Some exceptionally fit people use "weight" in their cardio workouts, and in their chinups and all that, but they should not be used as an example for the rest of us.

The only reason why I‘m commenting is becasue there are 17 year olds who read these forums and whose education surrounding fitness is wholely formed by what they read and by what they see in the gym.
I know because I‘ve seen literally hundreds of young induviduals come into the gym and do things that are absolutely terrible for them.

Obviously the best advice is to seek out a personal trainer and learn correct form and technique from a professional. However I think we all realise most people don‘t do that, and I feel it‘s important to be as detailed as possible when giving any form of instruction or advice.

When I read "If you want cardiovascular strength, then low weights and hi reps rule." I envisioned people doing squats, or the benchpress, or bicep curls for enough reps that they might actually reap some cardiovascular benefit, which would be horrifyingly bad for their muscles, joints, and tendons.
Had you said "use lower RESISTANCE and increase your distance, or time" I wouldn‘t have found it alarming as I would have assumed that you were talking about cardiovascular specific exercise.

I would drop the subject altogether except that I have received about 6 votes since I commented in this thread that are ever decreasing my rating.
I don‘t really care about the rating, but the message thats being sent to me is that those people think I‘m wrong.
I‘m not wrong.

Like the post where Duotone81 advises doing supersets. Nothing wrong with that, supersets ARE beneficial. However, if you know anything about supersets, you know that most people don‘t know how to do them correctly.
My only point would be: explain what a superset is, what percentage of your 1 rep max should you begin a superset with? How long do you break in between? Etc.

I also think that you should be careful to err on the side of caution when giving advice about weightlifting.
I think that saying you did abdominal crunches for cardio is an example of a situation that most people couldn‘t handle. Most people when they get past 20 or so reps on an abdominal exercise would be better off to grab a 10-25 pound plate and do that until they can do it more than 20 times. 650 repetitions would be awful for anyone who hasn‘t been training their lower back for a long time.

Of all the people I‘ve talked to about muscular development, I would say people who compete are amoung the fewest. Their routines and development in general are far beyond my what my needs are as an intermediate (who trains for a balance of strength, endurance,and definition,) and the simple fact is that many of them are on the juice, and they often trade off their future health to acheive results today.
Their training reflects very little on people who are training for practical reasons ie the police, fire dept, military, becasue for most of those type of jobs, before you need strength, you‘re probably going to have to run, climb, crawl, or swim as fast as possible to get to the scene of (whatever).

Cardiovascular exercise is not conducive to building mass anyway, when you have such low body fat as they do, cardiovascular exercise actually starts to interfere with growth. Your body starts to break down its own muscle for an energy source to keep you going.I would say that 90%+ of the serious body builders I have met only do enough cardio related exercise to get their blood flowing and their muscles warm prior to doing a workout. Typically between 5 and 15 minutes.

Anyway before I continue to just rant on, I‘m basically just saying that you should assume that everyone who reads your post about fitness doesn‘t have a clue when it comes to weight training.
Why you might ask?
Read the recruiting section for a while and see how many people ask questions about how to get by the minimum recruiting standards.
A person not sure they can do 19 pushups certainly doesn‘t know what they‘re doing when it comes to adding weight to their pushups. Even if they say they do.

PS edit-I too think that the pyramid sets of chin-ups mentioned by Duotone81 are good advice.

 

[Duotone81]

Yeah I just realized I didn‘t give any description what so ever about what a super set is. My apologies.

Now keep in mind folks that your "max weight" is the maximum weight that you can lift for one full rep. I highly recommend against determing this value through trial and error. It‘s too dangerous. Most gyms have charts that estimate your max based on statistical data. If not then the internet is a plethora of knowledge.

Now when I do a normal workout, which is 70-80% of max depending on body part, I will do 4 sets of 10 with 90 seconds in between each set. When I superset however, I‘ll use a weight = to about 70-80% max for the first set of 10 reps, then go on to another exercise (which targets the same body part) using 50-60% of my max for 10 reps. This is an immediate switch. I‘ll do 4 sets of each ex.

A lot of people will incorporate 2 differnet body parts when they ss but I found that it‘s most beneficial when targeting the one muscle group.

If you‘re new to the gym scene then it‘s in your best interest to find an instructor to at least give you the skinny on how to use the equipment. The way you perform your ex is critical! I agree 100% with Graham on this. You can do an ex for months without getting stronger/more defined because of bad form and you can get injured as well. A rule of thumb - When you‘re doing the ex and if you feel that your target muscles are not getting enough or no workout at all or if you feel another body part being strained chances are you‘re doing it wrong. Also to get the gains you shouldn‘t sacrifice form for weight. It‘s dangerous and counter productive. I see too many guys lift more than they‘re capable of to impress others in the gym. Don‘t feel intimidated that I‘m pressing 90lb dumbells on the incline. There was a time when I couldn‘t lift a whole lot either. Dedication, discipline and common sense are what get you the gains.

Have fun.

 

[Garry]

Graham, Duotone,

Excellent posts, many valid points, particularly the point on education. The regimen that I described was used by guys that had been lifting their entire lives, and had a reasonably good understanding of their own bodies and limitations.

If I had to recommend an excercise program for those joining the Forces, I‘d suggest sit ups and push ups every day, twice a day: first thing in the morning and last thing at night. Run/jog every day, and install a chin up bar either in the house or outside, and make a rule that you do not pass it without chinning a few.

This is pretty much what we did in the Army, and stood me in good stead for my career.

As for supersets: done them, and they‘re a great way to break up the routine of a program that‘s grown monotonous. Lots of fun for the spotting partner, too...requires lots of encouragement and the guy at the weights usually can‘t disguise his pain so well

Excercise is a great thing, but overdoing it is bad. Injuries shrugged off in youth tend to return with a vengeance as you age. I know.

Cheers-Garry

 

[girlfiredup]

Originally posted by Garry:
Girl Fired Up,

8 chin ups is a temendous feat- I‘d bet most of the folks here can‘t duplicate it. Way to go!

Thanks for the kind words.

The amount of weight that a person uses in their excerices should be based on the results that you want to achieve. For instance, if you are trying to gain muscle mass, than low reps and heavy weight is the way to go. If you want cardiovascular strength, then low weights and hi reps rule.

So what type of workout would you recommend I focus on for basic training apart from the obvious (pushups, chinups, situps, etc..)? I still want to continue lifting but I tend to lift moderate to heavy and always to failure. Maybe its time to focus on endurance (high reps/low weight)?

My workouts are so varied. I have performed all varieties of methods (ie. heavy weight/low rep for mass, low weight/high rep for muscular endurance, supersetting, pyramiding, etc..). I tend to switch things up every 6 weeks or so. The only problem with that is I feel that if I drop my weight, I have to work back up to being able to lift heavy again and that sucks.

There are all kinds of folk out there that will offer good advice on weight training, but as with anything, free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. I‘d suggest you get Arnold‘s book from Weider publishing. It is a tremendous resource, and will explain exactly why what excercise works, how to perform it correctly, and how to progress.

I am starting to work with a trainer.. twice a week.. he‘s going to kick my butt! Tomorrow is my first session. He knows I plan on going into the military and has a brother that is inside so he‘s familiar with my goals and will focus more on the endurance aspect of my workouts (situps, pushups, chin-ups, jumping jacks, etc..). But I still want to continue lifting.

FWIW- I think that chin ups are an excellent way to develop back and shoulder muscles. More to the point, it is one of the required excercises in the Military. Make sure that sit-ups, push ups, and chin ups are part of your program, they‘ll be tested in basic.

I totally agree.

Most of my training has been for bulk, and my training partner regularly added weights when performing chin ups. He had a waist belt, and the weights hung between his legs, on the front, allowing good form.

The problem with a weight belt is most of them don‘t fit my waist. They end up sliding down to my ankles. I thought of putting a dumbell between my feet but as you mentioned, the belt allows for proper form.

We also added weights when doing dips and push ups.

A weight plate on your back for pushups?

Regards,
GFU

 

[Garry]

Hi,

If your focus is purely basic training, then I‘ll suggest the "obvious"- that you stick with push ups, sit ups, chin ups, and running. While it‘s been a long time since I did basic training, I believe the basics haven‘t changed much. Besides, they‘re great generic excercises, and will benefit you no matter what you do.

As far as lifting for fun, do what makes you happy. "Mixing it up" is great, keeps you interested, and hits the muscles in different ways: always a good thing!

A trainer that is knowleadgeble and aware of your goals is worth their weight in gold, good for you for getting one!

Heavy weight training takes it‘s toll on the joints and bones. If I had to do it all over again, I‘d tone down the really heavy stuff. I‘m paying for it now, and live on Glucosamine and more recently Lakota. (and I‘d recommend both of them for anyone involved with athletics, start now, they‘ll help) On the other hand, lifting a bent Olympic bar is a real ego rush!

One thing many folks don‘t work on too much is their forearms. I use a short stick (18" long?) and tie a rope to the middle (tight!). Hold the stick out straight in front of you, rope hanging straight down, and "roll" the rope back up by turning the stick in your hands. Keep the arms horizontal throughout, only the wrists move. Tie whatever size weight feels good one the end. Make sure that you bring the weight up, and down, under control. The burn is exquisite, and the results come quickly.

If you‘re still insistant on adding weight to your chin ups, and the belts don‘t work, tie a rope around your waist. It will grip, guranteed!

Cheers-garry

 

[girlfiredup]

Garry, you‘ve given me some things to consider and work on. Tomorrow will be a whole different workout routine for me. Looking forward to it.

I appreciate your time.

Regards,
GFU