Capped course, recruits to wait another year?

[Gasmonkey]

Quick question guys, theres a bunch of SQ Qualified guys in my regiment that have been told their not getting their BIQ basic Infantry qualifications this summer. Which means most will have to wait until NEXT summer. all because of a capped course. I dont know about you, but this seems like more BS too me. how do they expect to get people to stay in for more than the average couple years when they pull this kind of stuff? maybe Im overeacting but these guys will pretty much hqve their time in for corporals before theyre even trained. Anyways, maybe this is common? any comments?

Ahh, and a favor, if anyone has a list of all the BIQ courses running this summer in Canada, can they post it? Ive suggested that they put in the paperwork for another BIQ course further away, even if they likely wont get it.

Thanks

 

[Forgotten_Hero]

Let me make something clear: If they're ready to quit over not being able to do BIQ this year, I dont think I want them with me. "OMG, I didnt get my course,  :crybaby: :crybaby: I'm going to quit!"  :

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Let me make something clear: If they're ready to quit over not being able to do BIQ this year, I dont think I want them with me. "OMG, I didnt get my course,  :crybaby: :crybaby: I'm going to quit!"  :

Or maybe they want to get the required courses to get on with further trng, deployments, getting out of PAT Pltn (or whatever it is called now)...just a thought... :

Not being MOC qual'd would limit what they could do, where they could do it.  Sounds legit to me.

 

[Forgotten_Hero]

Or maybe they want to get the required courses to get on with further trng, deployments, getting out of PAT Pltn (or whatever it is called now)...just a thought...

I dont know about you, but if I truely wanted to get deployed, I wouldnt quit the army if I have to wait 1 more year to get fully trained.

Not being MOC qual'd would limit what they could do, where they could do it.  Sounds legit to me.

Of course its legit concern. Its not a good reason to quit over, though. It just shows a lack of dedication, and I'd pick the dedicated troop over the not so dedicated troop anytime, wouldnt you?

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Of course.  I just didn't see where the original post said "quit".  I did see the "how do they expect people to want to stay in after their BE..." comment.  If they stick around the extra year waiting for BIQ, I guess I would think they were pretty committed.

Mud

GasMonkey, is this a Reg or Res BIQ??

 

[davidk]

maybe Im overeacting but these guys will pretty much hqve their time in for corporals before theyre even trained.

GasMonkey, is this a Reg or Res BIQ??

Last time I checked, you didn't get promoted to Corporal in the regs just by sitting around. Res BIQ.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Last time I checked, you didn't get promoted to Corporal in the regs just by sitting around. Res BIQ.

After reading your profile I am sure you can school me on many, many things.   :

The original post said "enough time in for Cpl" not Qual's.  There's a difference...

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Last time I checked, you didn't get promoted to Corporal in the regs just by sitting around. Res BIQ.

And I didn't get promoted to Cpl (in '92) for sitting around either...  We had to "do stuff".   

Do you hit yourself in the head, or just shoot yourself in the foot?

 

[Forgotten_Hero]

I just didn't see where the original post said "quit".  I did see the "how do they expect people to want to stay in after their BE..." comment.  If they stick around the extra year waiting for BIQ, I guess I would think they were pretty committed.

Thats how I took the comment though. And as for the comment about this whole problem being BS, that gets on my nerves too. I'm tired of hearing new guys say "BS" this and "BS" that. Yes theres plenty of BS to put up with, but this isnt BS, and this cant readily be changed. Having to wait an extra year for BIQ is perhaps inconveniant, but its the responsible thing to do. We have guys in Afghanistan now and over all around the world, and theres a shortage of instructors. The army isnt in the habit of lowering the quality of the training for the sole purpose of making a couple of troops happy. If this was a case of guys with more TI being overlooked for BIQ than fresh guys that are getting sent for SQ+BIQ back to back, then it'd be a different story. I'm probably sounding a bit harsh, but I just got back from a wet ex and we had one troop that just complained constantly and I've just about reached my limit.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Ack.  My only thought is...if you/me/we take a few minutes to explain "why" there is no room on courses (I am taking a stab at this but maybe there is limited BIQ resources in LFCA because of 3-06) then...he/she can tell all the other little troopies and then they can maybe understand and not be bitter.  They stay in, and "we" don't have to go thru the process of recruiting someone, etc etc that wanted to join in the first place...wasted energy time and resources...not to mention $$ from budgets.  They (the troops) are ours (assuming you are Jnr NCO or above) to look after and educate.

;D

Mud

 

[Forgotten_Hero]

Indeed, I should have explained it outright, but that still doesnt change my opinion that too many people are going around crying "BS" at everything they dont like.

 

[davidk]

After reading your profile I am sure you can school me on many, many things.   :

The original post said "enough time in for Cpl" not Qual's.  There's a difference.  When you have more than 1 yr T.I. (Class A?) you will understand that...

You may have misunderstood what I was implying. Where I am, in 34 Brigade, the only real requirement for a second hook is two years in. I'm by no means saying you didn't earn your promotion, Mud Recce Man.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

I am sure you need BMQ/SQ and DP1 Inf courses (used to have to have 1 PCF/QL4 level course) for promotion to Cpl.  While Res requirements are not the same standard for promo to Cpl as Reg's...its not a complete "gimme" either.  Don't do yourself discredit is my point...

Now back to the point of the thread...

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Quick question guys, theres a bunch of SQ Qualified guys in my regiment that have been told their not getting their BIQ basic Infantry qualifications this summer. Which means most will have to wait until NEXT summer. all because of a capped course. I dont know about you, but this seems like more BS too me. how do they expect to get people to stay in for more than the average couple years when they pull this kind of stuff? maybe Im overeacting but these guys will pretty much hqve their time in for corporals before theyre even trained. Anyways, maybe this is common? any comments?

Ahh, and a favor, if anyone has a list of all the BIQ courses running this summer in Canada, can they post it? Ive suggested that they put in the paperwork for another BIQ course further away, even if they likely wont get it.

Thanks

Gas,

Did they say why the course is capped?  ( I am assuming you mean "full" ie no more room for students ).  Did you ask why this was the case?

If not...that may be a start.  I know our Area (I am from LFAA) is tapped out for some courses because of "higher priority tasks" and some units/trades are facing the same situation down here.  I will assume the same for LFCA with 3-06.  However, your CoC should be able to answer that and I am not sure this is the right place to discuss it further...if you are not sure what I am talking about feel free to PM me. 

I got ya, its frustrating to be in that situation, but the first advice I would give to find out WHY that is the situation.  And remember...we are serving the army...vice it serving us.    Keep your stick on the ice, good things come to those who...wait/work hard/deserve it.

 

[TCBF]

"Of course its legit concern. Its not a good reason to quit over, though. It just shows a lack of dedication, and I'd pick the dedicated troop over the not so dedicated troop anytime, wouldn't you?"

- I will have thirty years in - Regular - in October.  If I'd had to wait a year for my TQ3 when I was 21, I would - back then - have seriously questioned the 'dedication' of the force that recruited me without a plan to train me.  I would have questioned the ability of such an organization to recruit, train, lead, equip and sustain an Army in war, if they could not manage  to unfcuk themselves enough to do it in peacetime.

I am no longer 21, so I no longer think that way.  But: that is the way a lot of our potential 21 year-old recruits think, and if the people who concern themselves with attracting, recruiting, training and RETAINING 21 year-olds haven't figured that out yet, then we have a far bigger problem than one cancelled course.

 

[Forgotten_Hero]

I am no longer 21, so I no longer think that way.  But: that is the way a lot of our potential 21 year-old recruits think

Indeed. Now, I dont mean to sound offensive, but if you have to chose between two soldiers now, both 21 year olds, who would you chose, the one that complains about being overlooked for some course and is considering quitting, or the one that was overlooked aswell, but is not considering quitting over it. Now, I havent done PLQ, I'm in no leadership position, I have little time in, granted, but I still think that this (taking it a step further now to the complainers) attitude needs to be fixed, and you cant always fix it by being buddy buddy with the troop in question. Depending on the severity of the attitude, they need to be unfucked. When they tell their immediate superior to carry the 521 because its kind of heavy, or when they complain because its raining and their boots are wet after being told to keep quiet at that moment during an escape and evasion exercise, they need to be pointed at all the others who are going through the same, then all the others who are going through worse, and who arent complaining. They need to be sorted out, seriously, because in a year or a year and a half in the reserves they'll be promoted to a position of influence over fresh troops and the attitude may spread.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

So sort them out.  ;D

1.  Lead by example.
2.  Correct on the spot, not just with "don't do that".  Follow thru.  "Don't do that, and this is why. This is the way it is done.  Watch how I do it.  Now you do it.  Good.  Carry on."
3.  What you can't fix, involve the next level up the CoC.
4.  When in doubt, see #1. 

There are 4 types of discipline in the military.  Group Discipline is one of them.  NO, that is NOT what you think, involving scenes like the one from Full Metal Jacket.  Group Discipline is "people in the group adhering to the normal conduct/behaviours of the group in order to fit in" type of thing (its late and SLC was 4 years ago but thats close).  They pick up the behaviours and accept norm's of the group they join...if that means keeping your mouth shut on E & E or not whining cause the radio is heavy, they won't do it if no one else is doing it...setting the example, as say, a Snr Cpl in a Section, may help bring up the level of group discipline...

Always remember #4  ;D

 

[TCBF]

I see your point.   I think this is macro vs micro stuff.   Which troop do I want?   Both of them, and we solve the issues as they arise - one way or another.  Military leadership at that level is all  "Slap on back - kick on ***, repeat as necessary."  

Big picture - at CFRS Cornwallis in the eighties, we met the 707 at CFB Greenwood on Sunday (?) night, and we joked that some of the guys still smelled of the booze they drank the night before they walked into the Recruiting Centers four days earlier.  Ten weeks later they marched off their grad parade, and their TQ3s mostly started right after that.  It was 'just in time delivery', only with people.  And it worked.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

But this sounds like it is sorta out of the lanes of this thread...a smidge...

*Edit*  WRT to my last post, not TCBFs...

 

[Forgotten_Hero]

1.  Lead by example.
2.  Correct on the spot, not just with "don't do that".  Follow thru.  "Don't do that, and this is why. This is the way it is done.  Watch how I do it.  Now you do it.  Good.  Carry on."
3.  What you can't fix, involve the next level up the CoC.
4.  When in doubt, see #1. 

Unfortunately this hasnt to do with inspiring confidence or getting them to do something, so most of that wont work. I know the previous team leaders of the troop I'm using as an example, and I know they are stand up soldiers. They do infact lead by example, and if they were in a position to explain something, they would. I do not know exactly what's been done to sort out these kinds of troops, and I have not been in the position to do so yet, all I know is that steps should be taken to change this sort of attitude en masse, and limit its spread.

Big picture - at CFRS Cornwallis in the eighties, we met the 707 at CFB Greenwood on Sunday (?) night, and we joked that some of the guys still smelled of the booze they drank the night before they walked into the Recruiting Centers four days ealier.  Ten weeks later they marched off their grad parade, and their TQ3s mostly started right after that.  It was 'just in time delivery', onl;y with people.  And it worked.

Indeed. I suppose this is where the "break 'em down, build 'em back up" principle comes from, which seems, to me, to be going extinct in some cases. And this is where the whole topic gets tied back to the subject of the thread. My platoon and a second platoon, during our basic, were lucky. We had good staff, they did a good job at this sort of thing. The rest of the platoons, on the other hand, had random combinations of instructors that couldnt lead by example. Plain and simple, many of the instructors didnt know what they were doing, and couldnt lead by example or inspire confidence, for a variety of reasons. As such, they couldnt "break 'em down" or "build 'em back up", and this is the result. Why? Because there was a LOT of troops to train, and the higher ups were struggling to find instructors I suppose. Now this year theres even less available.