Canadian Gasoline prices

[SeaKingTacco]

I pay nearly 200% tax on the natural gas that I buy from Fortis.

3 levels of government, all putting their "green taxes" on something that I need to heat my house.

Luckily, I have a very efficient furnace, but still.

 

[George Wallace]

I pay nearly 200% tax on the natural gas that I buy from Fortis.

3 levels of government, all putting their "green taxes" on something that I need to heat my house.

Luckily, I have a very efficient furnace, but still.

Wood stoves have been one solution ......where they have not been banned.

 

[jollyjacktar]

We ended up going full electric as we couldn't replace the pellet stove once it became too knackered.  The hassles and expense made it impossible to contemplate.  Now, we have heat pumps and ETS as well as solar hot water.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[FJAG]

I pay nearly 200% tax on the natural gas that I buy from Fortis.

3 levels of government, all putting their "green taxes" on something that I need to heat my house.

Luckily, I have a very efficient furnace, but still.

I just compared a sample mainland Fortis bill to my Union Gas bill and to put it politely it's hard to compare. I buy gas per cubic meter while you do by the gigajoule. (apparently 1 gigajoule = 26.9 cu metres) Your gigajoule costs $1.55 while my cubic meter costs appx $0.13 (or $3.50 for a gigajoule). So off hand I pay more for the actual gas here. After that everything goes to hell in a handbasket once you consider fixed charges, delivery, storage etc.

My only tax is HST which is 13% but I know that there is a hidden cap and trade piece of cr*p which is appx just under 10% of the bill.  You do seem to have several government levies (municipal, carbon, clean energy and GST but apparently no express PST like we have included in our HST) Roughly 10% of my bill is the actual cost of gas. Everything else is an add on. The big difference that I see is that your basic charge is half of mine while your delivery charge is twice mine.

If you look just at the cost of gas v taxes, I paid around $10.00 taxes on $20.00 of gas while the sample Fortis bill had $16.00 taxes on $10.00 of gas. Interestingly when I looked at a sample Fortis bill for Revelstoke, there was $65.00 of taxes on $198.00 of gas. (Revelstoke's cost of gas was $11.00/gJ as opposed to $1.55/GJ on the mainland - wow)

It's all the other charges that kill us. I used to laugh (hysterically) when I lived in Blenheim where my delivery charge for hydro exceeded my cost of electricity and I had a wind turbine that stood clearly visible to me less than a kilometer away.

:cheers:

 

[Occam]

 

[Brad Sallows]

>just buy a $40K electric car

I did a "back of the envelope" calculation based on some online figures people have calculated for EV mileage and my Hydro bills (and there is no electrical heating), and determined that 24,000 km per year (what I used to routinely do) would mean increasing my electricity consumption by about 90% - 200% (depending on efficiency of the EV).  Conclusion: a widespread shift of merely personal transportation (ie. disregarding commercial / industrial transportation) would require a massive increase in electricity generation.  For an illustration: Energy flows in Canada (choose "2013" if it isn't the default).  Notice the current contribution by "Wind and Solar".

The BC government has a curious notion of energy policy.  They want to move away from oil consumption, but wanted to shut down the Site C hydroelectric dam.  They want more revenue for capital funding for transit projects, but removed all the bridge tolls in the lower mainland.  They want to contribute to [reducing] worldwide carbon dioxide emissions, but resist doing everything possible to expedite natural gas exports to Asia so that fewer coal-fired thermal plants are needed.

BC as a whole deserves to endure a period of major gasoline price increases.  Our current collective attitude is extraordinarily selfish: it is OK to ship in enough to satisfy our needs - refueling the jets at YVR we use to travel abroad, refueling the ships that bring our fair trade organic coffee, etc - by whatever means, but not to transport it across BC to other export markets.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

>just buy a $40K electric car

I did a "back of the envelope" calculation based on some online figures people have calculated for EV mileage and my Hydro bills (and there is no electrical heating), and determined that 24,000 km per year (what I used to routinely do) would mean increasing my electricity consumption by about 90% - 200% (depending on efficiency of the EV).  Conclusion: a widespread shift of merely personal transportation (ie. disregarding commercial / industrial transportation) would require a massive increase in electricity generation.  For an illustration: Energy flows in Canada (choose "2013" if it isn't the default).  Notice the current contribution by "Wind and Solar".

The BC government has a curious notion of energy policy.  They want to move away from oil consumption, but wanted to shut down the Site C hydroelectric dam.  They want more revenue for capital funding for transit projects, but removed all the bridge tolls in the lower mainland.  They want to contribute to [reducing] worldwide carbon dioxide emissions, but resist doing everything possible to expedite natural gas exports to Asia so that fewer coal-fired thermal plants are needed.

BC as a whole deserves to endure a period of major gasoline price increases.  Our current collective attitude is extraordinarily selfish: it is OK to ship in enough to satisfy our needs - refueling the jets at YVR we use to travel abroad, refueling the ships that bring our fair trade organic coffee, etc - by whatever means, but not to transport it across BC to other export markets.

No Brad. There is an extremely vocal minority that are holding the rest of us hostage.

This has got to stop.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

No Brad. There is an extremely vocal minority that are holding the rest of us hostage.

This has got to stop.

Really SKT: Can you indicate any government policy being rammed down our throats that doesn't fit that bill?

I used to think that the "government" was serious in using things like carbon taxes and gas taxes to actually achieve their GHG emissions reduction target. Silly me. Now that you see the economists coming out with the actual figures of the taxation levels that would be required to achieve that objective and how far below we are - even though highly taxed - I cannot help but think that it is the governments that are on drugs: The drugs of high taxes revenues (knowing it will not change behaviour) for their side pet projects at the expense of not openly taxing the citizenry for those pet projects. If people could see how much they are "taxed" to provide all those pet projects, they may rebel at election time so they rather hide the taxes.

P.S.: Most people today don't remember that, but one of the primary driver behind PM Mulroney's GST was that items in Canada were sold to consumers filled with various hidden "excise" type taxes, included in the price but hard to track. The GST eliminated all those hidden taxes and forced them in the open. This created pressure to either reduce the taxes, or at the very least not increase it. It's what let PM Harper reduce the tax by two points and cut down on government spending: People could immediately see the connection between the two.

Imagine what would happen if your gas stations were forced to advertise their prices as follows:

Regular: 0.85+ taxes
Taxes: 0.42

I think many people would get on the government's asses to explain why the tax is so high. (I think the same thing could be done for  good measure with alcoholic beverages ;D - I positively hate the concept of "sin" taxes).

 

[dapaterson]

This gets into Canadians and taxes writ large.  Canadians mostly refuse to pay their own way.  They want massive government services and no taxes to pay for them.  They want to live in the sprawling suburbs, and not pay the cost of infrastructure installation or maintenance necessary to sustain it.  They want 24/7 access to a doctor at no cost if they have a hangnail, but don't want to pay GST.

Taxes are high because politicians of all stripes make promises and deliver on the backs of our children and grandchildren.  See: Homer Simpson in "The Garbage Man Can".

 

[Colin Parkinson]

and the ones that live in the city want everyone else pay for their transit and take their garbage. Oh yea don't disturb the wilderness you rural types.
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[Edward Campbell]

This gets into Canadians and taxes writ large.  Canadians mostly refuse to pay their own way.  They want massive government services and no taxes to pay for them.  They want to live in the sprawling suburbs, and not pay the cost of infrastructure installation or maintenance necessary to sustain it.  They want 24/7 access to a doctor at no cost if they have a hangnail, but don't want to pay GST.

Taxes are high because politicians of all stripes make promises and deliver on the backs of our children and grandchildren.  See: Homer Simpson in "The Garbage Man Can".

:goodpost:

That is, pretty much, all that needs to be said. Prices from refiners (and therefore, profits to oil companies) are within pennies per litre of one another on each side of the US border ... the differences are  found in taxes.

Don't like taxes? Then YOU must decide that you and I and our families and friends and neighbours will do without services to which far, far too many of us believe we are entitled ~ and beliefs in the utility of government programmes are close to religious beliefs in both the intensity with which they are held and the lack of foundation for them.

 

[ModlrMike]

I can only imagine the government's response when electric vehicles replace petrol engines on the road. How are we to pay for road maintenance when the bulk of that ostensibly comes from fuel taxes? Do we charge electric vehicle owners with a tax for using a service they don't pay for, or do we increase the tax on fuel to generate more revenue against a shrinking pool?

 

[Brad Sallows]

Three years ago the BC government held a referendum to test whether residents of the lower mainland would accept a half-cent PST increase to fund transit.  It was rejected, but not overwhelmingly.

Translink (here in BC) has all sorts of ideas for raising revenue: property taxes, vehicle/licence taxes, various fees (tolls, mileage, time-of-day access), fare increases, additional taxes on pretty much anything (not just fuels).

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I can only imagine the government's response when electric vehicles replace petrol engines on the road. How are we to pay for road maintenance when the bulk of that ostensibly comes from fuel taxes? Do we charge electric vehicle owners with a tax for using a service they don't pay for, or do we increase the tax on fuel to generate more revenue against a shrinking pool?

I'm not worried. We'll never go full electric. Not in our lifetimes anyway.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I can only imagine the government's response when electric vehicles replace petrol engines on the road. How are we to pay for road maintenance when the bulk of that ostensibly comes from fuel taxes? Do we charge electric vehicle owners with a tax for using a service they don't pay for, or do we increase the tax on fuel to generate more revenue against a shrinking pool?

It is easy to conflate the response (or lack of response) of any government (regardless of stripe) with a lack of imagination, intelligence or ingenuity simply because we dislike any particular party or even the notion of governments in general.  However, I don't think that it will be much of an exercise to develop a new public funding model for self-user transportation infrastructure once (or if) electric vehicles become the predominant item on the roads.  Remember, back a little over a hundred years ago, transportation was converting from one form of vehicle power to another (i.e. horse power to HORSEPOWER vroom, vroom) and the taxation model developed quite easily to accommodate the reality.  We, in North America, relied exclusively on a pay as you go, use based system tying the taxation to fuel purchase.  Elsewhere in the world, their response was a little different, generating the funds by a combination of an annual flat tax on the vehicle (road tax) as well as also taxing fuel purchases.  If you are worried that governments (of whatever level) won't be able to differentiate the consumption of electricity between that used to recharge a vehicle with that of household use, it really doesn't matter.  There are any number of taxation models that could be used to target road users, e.g. annual road tax based on size of vehicle or power generated or mileage in the previous year, etc, etc.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I can only imagine the government's response when electric vehicles replace petrol engines on the road. How are we to pay for road maintenance when the bulk of that ostensibly comes from fuel taxes? Do we charge electric vehicle owners with a tax for using a service they don't pay for, or do we increase the tax on fuel to generate more revenue against a shrinking pool?

Apparently the leap in fuel efficiency of vehicles in the 2000's was not foreseen and governments were shocked to find the predicted revenue from fuel sales did not meet expectations. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

I've heard "The high gas prices are exactly what we want".
My source is a guy person who can explain quantum computers so he's really smart.

 

[George Wallace]

I've heard "The high gas prices are exactly what we want".
My source is a guy person who can explain quantum computers so he's really smart.

I don't know if I should  :rofl:  or not, as this is so  :facepalm: on his and his Finance Minister's ....Crap....His whole Government's part.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I've heard "The high gas prices are exactly what we want".
My source is a guy person people who can explain quantum computers so he's really smart.

 

[Infanteer]

I can only imagine the government's response when electric vehicles replace petrol engines on the road. How are we to pay for road maintenance when the bulk of that ostensibly comes from fuel taxes? Do we charge electric vehicle owners with a tax for using a service they don't pay for, or do we increase the tax on fuel to generate more revenue against a shrinking pool?

Simple.  Tools for road use/entering the city, a la London.