bomb sniffing dogs

[tryingtojoin]

Why doesn‘t the Canadian Army have a K-9 force specifically for mine detection? Beyond that is, their very limited presence in Bosnia.
Is it not politically correct to have dogs blowing up instead of soldiers?, or is it just a limmited resource issue?

 

[the patriot]

I guess because they have mine detection robots or systems that they are already working on. In "User Submitted" links there is a listing for Canadian Defense Research Establishments. It details what is being worked on at this time with respect to dealing with mine detection and disposal.

-the patriot-

 

[Egon]

I know that in Sydney, NS there is a place downtown devoted to the mine sniffing dog progect. I am not sure if they are ther just for awareness of the program or if they are actually doing the training but I do know that a national association does exist.

 

[Cbt Engr]

Dogs, ground penetrating radar, mine rollers, mine ploughs, Vipers ...... toys, and nothing but.
The UN definition of humaitarian demining is a clearance of 99.6%. The CF no longer engages in humanitarian demining unless it directly affects our own troops or those of the contingent we‘re working with/for.
In the Balkan region, most humanitarian demining is carried out by contracted companies certified by the UN. Several civilian K9 companies are also involved. The company from Sydney, NS (mentioned in an earlier post) supplies and trains dogs for this purpose. In 1999, my troop had the opportunity to watch some of the training and actual detection exercises of the dogs. Most impressive. The biggest drawback to using dogs in the military is cost of purchase, cost and length training (sometimes up to a year for a man/dog team), training of personnel (it‘s not like we have a lot of people), upkeep of the animals, etc etc. The list goes on and on. And there are only certain times of the day and certain weather conditions when the dog will be most effective.

The viper - cost. Last one was fired by 22 Field Squadron in Wainwright, Ab. during RV92. The Brits still use the baby and giant vipers though.

Rollers and ploughs - useful, not 100% (nothing is), good for rapid pushes through a suspected area.

AVLB - Made for GAP crossings, not minefields. Face it, if an A/T ditch is there then the tanks aren‘t going across until the bridge is down. So start firing them guns cuz you ain‘t movin.

Did I forget anything?

 

[sapper332]

The general consensus by many is that explosive sniffing dogs work - and work well. The problem with trying to incorporate that within the CF is 3-fold: time, labour and resources.
  Time to train dogs and handlers (there is no such establishment in the CF as yet), once trained, the labour required to maintain a formed body of handlers/ dogs ready for high readiness deployment and those extras for follow on deployments, and finally the resources (read: $$). Many other countries employ dog teams, and they are highly effective. Even the Croats have dog teams?!?!?!
    Unfortunately, most of this falls on deaf ears "up on high" - and I'm pretty sure the default setting will still be the easy formula:
    Sapper on belly + Mine Prodder in hand = a Cleared Area.

    Besides - with the new Tac Vest..... where the heck to we keep the dog treats???

 

[medicineman]

I seem to remember that when I was in Croatia in 94 that a request went in for sniffer dogs, but was turned down - something (rumour had it anyway) about the dogs might get hurt, maimed or killed etc and the animal rights people were a little uptight.  I guess they thought it was ok for people to get blown up, but heaven forbid if a K9 did.  THey wouldn't give over any rollers either because a Leopard would look "too aggressive" - even though the Danes painted their's white and used them in Bosnia.  Who knows, perhaps it was just a head in the sand thing - they'd have to admit that there was a serious mine threat and that we were taking casualties as a result of said threat, which we were at that time.

MM

 

[043]

The general consensus by many is that explosive sniffing dogs work - and work well. The problem with trying to incorporate that within the CF is 3-fold: time, labour and resources.
   Time to train dogs and handlers (there is no such establishment in the CF as yet), once trained, the labour required to maintain a formed body of handlers/ dogs ready for high readiness deployment and those extras for follow on deployments, and finally the resources (read: $$). Many other countries employ dog teams, and they are highly effective. Even the Croats have dog teams?!?!?!
    Unfortunately, most of this falls on deaf ears "up on high" - and I'm pretty sure the default setting will still be the easy formula:
    Sapper on belly + Mine Prodder in hand = a Cleared Area.

    Besides - with the new Tac Vest..... where the heck to we keep the dog treats???

I am one of those who doesn't agree with the employment of explosive sniffing dogs.  And the reason is that while they may be able to detect mines in the ground are they able to mark it, 100% ID that it is a mine or buried UXO and can the mark a patrol lane??  Bottom line is that while they may be used for sniffing baggage and vehicles, I really don't see the use for them as a Cbt Engineer Clearance tool.

 

[kj_gully]

All right, I must be addicted to this site if I'm posting in this section... however, if one dog gets blown up one day instead of a sapper.... fellas, I have personal experience with mammals as mine probes, but in an underwater environment. I don't think its a secret that there are allied countries who have a vast array of marine mammals employed by their navy to locate, mark and neutralize sea mines, and anti amphib mines in the intertidal zone. They are effective. Every contact is confirmed by humans in the training environment, but I imagine in wartime they just blow up every contact, false or not. They don't miss many actual contacts ( better than human/machine), the main problem in my experience is false positives, mistaking large rocks, hot water tanks etc for contacts. Not a big deal. This is a visual and sonar search, no scent. So don't blow this off as a possibility. Beg, borrow lease or steal some dogs for a trial. I bet pigs would work even better.

 

[043]

All right, I must be addicted to this site if I'm posting in this section... however, if one dog gets blown up one day instead of a sapper.... fellas, I have personal experience with mammals as mine probes, but in an underwater environment. I don't think its a secret that there are allied countries who have a vast array of marine mammals employed by their navy to locate, mark and neutralize sea mines, and anti amphib mines in the intertidal zone. They are effective. Every contact is confirmed by humans in the training environment, but I imagine in wartime they just blow up every contact, false or not. They don't miss many actual contacts ( better than human/machine), the main problem in my experience is false positives, mistaking large rocks, hot water tanks etc for contacts. Not a big deal. This is a visual and sonar search, no scent. So don't blow this off as a possibility. Beg, borrow lease or steal some dogs for a trial. I bet pigs would work even better.

Well said Kent but again, I disagree.  I am not sold on the dogs working in a land environment. I agree that a dogs dies, oh well, we saved a sapper but I really can't see how dogs keep spr's from heading into mined areas.

 

[Standards]

In 94'-95' 1 Tp 2 CER (1 RCR BG in Croatia) had some South African dogs with us for about a month for a trial.  As I recall, the problem was they were too good and would react to every spent casing and even to the holes where mines had formerly been buried.

Having some limited experience with UN dog teams in Bosnia and Afghanistan, I have no doubt they are an affective tool when conducting an area clearance, but they don't necessarily replace any of our other tools, just add capability.

I would be hesitant to employ them in more of a war fighting scenario (which is what I think the originator started this thread about).  It would take a different training focus then any dog teams I have encountered had.

Regardless, I am in agreement that it is a capability we should have since the more detection systems we have, the closer to perfect we can get.

D

 

[McG]

I don't imagine cost would be a factor.  Consider the money we've spent on ILDS.  The detector vehicle of the ILDS is really just a "technological dog" that will be used with the sole purpose of detecting mines without humans on their bellies with proders.

 

[kj_gully]

I really can't see how dogs keep spr's from heading into mined areas.

My point, and "standards" who posted after you, is not that dogs, like dolphins at sea, do not necessarily relieve humans of mine clearance, but definately can do a better job of detection. For that matter, I can confidently say that it is likely that a dog could carry a remote detonated charge and place it next to a suspected target and blow it up, as long as you don't mind the expense of blowing up empty casings, old mine holes etc.

Take care, Warriors

 

[043]

I don't imagine cost would be a factor.   Consider the money we've spent on ILDS.   The detector vehicle of the ILDS is really just a "technological dog" that will be used with the sole purpose of detecting mines without humans on their bellies with proders.

Have you heard about the failure of the ILDIS during Op Athena Roto 0?

 

[McG]

Yes.  The remote detection vehicle was never used, because it might have hit a mine!

 

[043]

Yes,

After 14 passes over the same lane in a mined area in Bagram, the RPV was still setting off AP mines. Brutal!

 

[Spr.Earl]

The general consensus by many is that explosive sniffing dogs work - and work well. The problem with trying to incorporate that within the CF is 3-fold: time, labour and resources.
   Time to train dogs and handlers (there is no such establishment in the CF as yet), once trained, the labour required to maintain a formed body of handlers/ dogs ready for high readiness deployment and those extras for follow on deployments, and finally the resources (read: $$). Many other countries employ dog teams, and they are highly effective. Even the Croats have dog teams?!?!?!
    Unfortunately, most of this falls on deaf ears "up on high" - and I'm pretty sure the default setting will still be the easy formula:
    Sapper on belly + Mine Prodder in hand = a Cleared Area.

    Besides - with the new Tac Vest..... where the heck to we keep the dog treats???

Oh you also forgot our P.C. attitude that is cruel to use a animal!
It's cheaper to lose a Sapper vs a   Dog.

I know one who is a one of the World's Leaders in UXO and Mine Clearance and   he has bought   Dog's     and uses Dog's for Mine and UXO detection in S.E.Asia!

P.S, He is also a Ex CDN   Sapper.