ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe

[army]

ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe





Posted by Greg from Abbotsford BC Canada on May 09, 1999 at 04:15:56:



Reading the paper today, saw that Svend Robinson is
going on a "fact finding" mission to Belgrade in support
of, er, **** , who knows what he‘s supporting now. The
point is that I‘m sure that everybody will understand if
you have "targeting error" while he‘s there. In fact, we‘ll
help you get over the pain and horror of knocking him
off by throwing you a REALLY BIG BEER party.

Just a thought.

 

[army]

Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe





Posted by Brad Sallows from Burnaby BC Canada on May 10, 1999 at 14:06:44:


In Reply to: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe posted by Greg on May 09, 1999 at 04:15:56:



Not funny. If you are currently serving in the Canadian Armed
Forces, feel free to request a release any time.

 

[army]

Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe





Posted by Brad Sallows from Burnaby BC Canada on May 10, 1999 at 14:07:06:


In Reply to: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe posted by Greg on May 09, 1999 at 04:15:56:



Not funny. If you are currently serving in the Canadian Armed
Forces, feel free to request a release any time.

 

[army]

Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe





Posted by Ryan Coke on May 10, 1999 at 21:06:20:


In Reply to: Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe posted by Brad Sallows on May 10, 1999 at 14:06:44:




I thought it was funny, and hey, I‘m a serving member. Army though, so maybe thats why I thought it was funny...

 

[army]

Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe





Posted by Greg from Abbotsford BC Canada on May 12, 1999 at 02:40:04:


In Reply to: Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe posted by Ryan Coke on May 10, 1999 at 21:06:20:



I‘m not a serving member. The most military organization
I‘ve ever belonged to was the cub scouts. What I am is
a citizen who not only is concerned about the extreme
lack of common sense shown by Svend Robinson by going
to a place that we are bombing, I‘m a citizen who is
now asking who exactly you think you are? If a soldier
doesn‘t agree with your personal politics s/he should
resign? Last time I checked, our armed forces weren‘t
run by you, so kindly keep your opinions about who
should or shouldn‘t be in the forces to yourself. What
gives you the authority to decide what a Canadian soldier
should think? Several of my friends are current or
former Canadian soldiers. One thing that can be said
for sure about them. They are all smart enough to form
and express their opinions without your assistance.

 

[army]

Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe





Posted by Brad Sallows from Burnaby BC Canada on May 12, 1999 at 13:53:48:


In Reply to: Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe posted by Greg on May 12, 1999 at 02:40:04:



My comment had nothing to do with politics or political opinions.
While I respect every one‘s right to form and discuss ideas, and
probably do more than my share of carping in this forum, I think
it inappropriate for armed forces members to openly suggest or
condone, even in jest, harm to our political leaders. That will
lead us down a road we don‘t want to travel.

 

[army]

Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe





Posted by Ken Newans from Canada on May 12, 1999 at 15:19:28:


In Reply to: Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe posted by Brad Sallows on May 12, 1999 at 13:53:48:



So what would have happened if more German officers discussed hurting or deposing Hitler? Does the Nuremberg defence apply? What makes you think we‘re not travelling down THAT road?

 

[army]

Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe





Posted by Brad Sallows from Burnaby BC Canada on May 12, 1999 at 16:09:16:


In Reply to: Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe posted by Brad Sallows on May 12, 1999 at 13:53:48:



I don‘t understand your point, Ken. What do you mean by referring
to the "Nuremberg defence"? I‘m not educated in the finer points
of the laws of conflict. The conflict in Serbia may or may not be
"illegal", but the only meaningful application of laws of war seems
to me to be regarding the manner in which war is conducted, not how
it originates. We are a long way from any situation in which any
faction, military or civilian, would need to consider taking action
against its own lawful government in order to prevent war crimes.

 

[army]

Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe





Posted by Ken Newans from Canada on May 12, 1999 at 19:36:55:


In Reply to: Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe posted by Brad Sallows on May 12, 1999 at 16:09:16:



The Nuremberg Defence was the line that Nazi officers used while in the dock at the Nuremberg war crimes trials - "I was only following orders." It wasn‘t accepted as a viable defence. The My Lai murderers tried it out as well.

Obviously, a serving soldier should not be badmouthing his superiors and that includes civilians elected to government office in open forum. There are times, however, when government officials abuse the trust placed in them by the lower ranks. Hitler was guilty of such abuses. Some would argue that Canada‘s government has reached that point. Some would even argue that Canada‘s government has been guilty of neglect of her Armed Forces since the inception.

Maybe I made a mountain out of a molehill - obviously death threats are not the answer, and Svend really isn‘t to blame for the military‘s woes. But you can see how a soldier might be frustrated at what he perceives to be a lack of concern by his own government for his welfare, while that same government keeps volunteering him for dangerous missions in hostile nations.

Then again, I‘m not so sure meaningless death threats on a message board are starting anyone on a slippery slope to disobedience. Perhaps such outlets are valuable to morale?

Devil‘s Advocate Ken

 

[army]

Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe





Posted by Greg from Abbotsford BC Canada on May 12, 1999 at 19:41:53:


In Reply to: Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe posted by Brad Sallows on May 12, 1999 at 13:53:48:



What, exactly, is wrong about making a joke?

Should we form a commitee to make jokes? To make sure
that they are properly vetted to ensure that one armed
Swedish bi-sexual visible minorities who refuse to speak
English on Thursdays aren‘t offended? At that point,
why don‘t we form a commitee to ensure that all potentially
offensive people are sent to live out their lives in the
mountains?

In all seriousness, it is unreasonable and in fact
foolish to attempt to censor jokes such as the one I
posted. Yet again speaking as the humble civillian that
I am, I‘d rather have the army JOKING about violent acts
against the government than plotting them. Give our
soldiers the credit they deserve in being able to tell
the difference between a joke and a bad idea.

Lastly, I don‘t think it‘s a bad idea for people to have
the idea, ESPECIALLY our politicians, that if Canadians
are pushed far enough, we‘ll toss ‘em outta office. I
don‘t think we‘re anywhere near where that would be required,
but preaching that such a circumstance couldn‘t exist
might be dangerous.

 

[army]

Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe





Posted by Brad Sallows from Burnaby BC Canada on May 12, 1999 at 19:58:57:


In Reply to: Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe posted by Brad Sallows on May 12, 1999 at 13:53:48:



I understand the joke was not made out of bitterness or with
malice, and appreciate that my comment was an overreaction.
Nevertheless, I won‘t overlook such a joke issuing from a
soldier any more than I will overlook a joke which constitutes
abuse or harassment.

 

[army]

Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe





Posted by Rob Clarke from Orleans ON Canada on May 12, 1999 at 23:28:27:


In Reply to: Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe posted by Ken Newans on May 12, 1999 at 19:36:55:




What the **** is a "meaningless death threat"?

 

[army]

Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe





Posted by Greg from Abbotsford BC Canada on May 13, 1999 at 16:00:27:


In Reply to: Re: ATTN: CF-18 piolts in Europe posted by Rob Clarke on May 12, 1999 at 23:28:27:



While I can understand the limitless discussions we
could have about if a joke is funny/threatening/politically
incorrect, I think the best approach to any statement that
you find offensive or threatening on message board would be
to ignore it.

As I made the joke in question, let me make it clear that
the intent was not threatening Mr. Robinson with anything.
In addition, the arguement that Mr. Sallows keeps presenting
that Canadian Soldiers shouldn‘t make such jokes is, flatly
put, irrelevant. I am not, nor have I ever been, a soldier.

I like to think that I present my point of view with enough
well reasoned logic that any reasonable person reading it
would understand that I am not advocating killing Mr.Robinson,
nor am I advocating that the Canadian Armed Forces rise
up and throw off the shackles of the government.

As for the question of meaningless death threats, you have
to look no further than the average hockey game. The players
routinely make statements to the effect of "We‘re gonna
kill ‘em". Does anybody acutally attempt with a guilty
mind attempt to end the other team‘s continued existance?
No. That‘s a meaningless death threat.