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Army to rely more on civilians to train recruits

Nfld Sapper

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All I can say to this is WTF ???

Army to rely more on civilians to train recruits

Updated Tue. Nov. 21 2006 8:52 AM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Canada's top soldier says the army is stretched so thin by the war in Afghanistan that it will rely increasingly on civilian contractors and reservists to train new recruits.

"There's no doubt the army is under tremendous pressure," Lt.-Gen. Andrew Leslie told an all-party Commons defence committee on Monday.

But Leslie said he draws the line at using civilian contractors as mercenaries in war zones.

He said despite the tremendous pressure the army is under, now that it's committed to operations in Kandahar until 2009, he's confident soldiers under his command would be able to do everything that is being asked of them.

"If I wasn't, I'd tell you," said Leslie.

The mission in Afghanistan has meant that junior officers and non-commissioned officers (NCOs)-- enlisted members who've been given authority by a commissioned officer and are considered crucial for army training -- are in short supply in Canada.

Leslie said the gap is being filled by outsourcing some training, such as driving courses for armoured vehicles and other non-combat related instruction.

Relying on civilian assistance to prepare recruits for war is the latest in a series of moves the army has made to sustain the Tory government's commitment to keep the combat mission going in Afghanistan until February 2009.

But even though they're under the gun, Leslie said that seasoned NCOs and officers will still direct all combat training -- stressing that mercenaries will not be used to fill any holes on the front lines.

The general said Canada has no intention of copying a practice used by other countries, notably the U.S., that employs civilian security consultants in war zones.

"There are some countries that use private security firms because they either don't have enough soldiers, or don't want to use their soldiers for those tasks," Leslie told The Canadian Press after the defence committee meeting.

"I've seen them operating in certain parts of the world, when I was in Croatia and in Bosnia and elsewhere. And I'm very glad to tell you I do not believe it's the Government of Canada's intent to ever employ such individuals -- armed individuals -- carrying out what essentially I believe are soldier's tasks."

Leslie's comments came on the day questions arose in the House of Commons about an internal defence document suggesting security measures needed for the 2010 Winter Olympic Games in Vancouver will compromise military operations in Afghanistan.

NDP defence critic Dawn Black tabled a ministerial briefing note she obtained, which suggested the army won't be able to sustain an overseas deployment and provide security for the Winter Olympics at the same time.

"Given the chief of defence staff believes we'll have to be in Afghanistan for 10 years or more, where will the minister find the troops to protect the Olympic venue?" she asked on Monday during question period.

"Will he choose Vancouver or Kandahar?"

Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor suggested the question was hypothetical because British Columbia had not formally asked the army to be involved in Olympic security.

A few weeks ago, O'Connor and chief of defence staff Gen. Rick Hillier revealed plans to use sailors and aircrew in non-combat roles overseas, such as truck driving. The measure is meant to free infantry who might have been stuck in such support roles.

With a report from The Canadian Press

 
It may well be time for the PM to sign an Order in Council to get the desired Reservists into the Reg's to meet our commitments. I can't see that happening until after the next election.
 
You want the PM to do WHAT!

Seriously your kidding right...you have any idea the political and civilian backlash that would have, heck calling up the Res in WWI and WWII was bad enough politically(especially WWI) but that's just one step away from conscription in peoples minds oh wait it really is just one step away from conscription and well look how that fared previously in our history. No what we need is to streamline the Reg F recruiting system and get some relief on the ground for some of the Senior Cpls to get time to do the PLQ which in turn would lead to more MCpl's and then of course the senior MCPL's would be free to do the DP3...see how this works my friend, the in say 3-5 years the top gap measure of civilian contractors is removed and were floating just fine.

All this is IMO of course.
 
What is more economical for the Army;  to hire civilian contractors to take care of non-combat related training, or to pay to have people take the required courses, and then become instructors themselves?

Once you factor in all of the instructor courses, and the matieral courses - I'm curious to know which would be more economical.

Also, what are your feelings about using private companies, such as St. John's Ambulance, to conduct BMQ standard first-aid training??  Any other ideas or examples, of using private companies in such roles??
 
CBH99 said:
Also, what are your feelings about using private companies, such as St. John's Ambulance, to conduct BMQ standard first-aid training?? 

NO!

We currently use St Johns's Ambulance for standard first aid, and it is woefully inadequate for anything even remotely military. It just doesn't cut it, It's great for civi's; useless for us. Trust me we are revamping the first aid as it is, no need to go backwards. As for other PMC for teaching military skills I se nothing wrong with it short term but if left too long it's not a good idea, plus I'm very sure it's more expensive long run then is feasible.
 
Last time I instructed was 98, from what I hear is that the instructors are treated worse then the recruits, if someone could correct me, please feel free.
All I remember from 98 is that I can't do this and that and hug a troop if he is sad.
I would love to do it again if I could!
 
CFSME RETS had civilans employed teaching CMD this summer  (they were all ex military: eather 043 old 041, or ammo tech)
 
Why not hire persons off the supplementary reserve list?  ??? I know ex-military who would love to be back in uniform part time. These folks range in ages anywhere from early 40's (joined at the ripe old age of 17 for example) to those in their early to mid-fifties. These folks could be used in the training cadres.
 
A little more on the same:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/53574.0.html

I know the numbers may not be high, but there's gotta be some troops too injured to go back, but recovered enough to help train people, no?  What's better than having been there, done that? 

Another idea from outta left field:  How about any combat arms types discharged for having kidney stones invited back in to train?  Can't deploy them, but can certainly use them at home here. 
 
There is a lot of civvie equivilent training that can be done. Medics can be trained, nurses can be trained, by civvie paramedics and nurses. Admin clerks can be trained by civies for computer skills, transport operations and drivers can be trained by civvies, CE can be trained by civvie counter-parts, pilots can be trained for elementry flying (I believe this is the case in Portage la Prairie already), police courses, and the list goes on. In many cases the civvie counter-parts have a great deal of expertise (ie medical, pharmacies, driver-training, etc) that are equal or better than military training.

There have been many instances of military personnel receiving training and schooling with civvies in colleges and universities. I think this is a great idea, as long as the civvie training meets the standards.

Also, Supp reservists and ex-members can certainly fit the bill.

I worked in the software industry on military contracts, and many of the engineers were ex-military who knew the systems very well.

 
 
Meanwhile, Gen. Hillier says recruiting going great guns. Thanks to David Akin for his post--when will this positive news hit the media at large?
http://davidakin.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/11/20/2515042.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
Cardstonkid said:
It may well be time for the PM to sign an Order in Council to get the desired Reservists into the Reg's to meet our commitments. I can't see that happening until after the next election.
i thought that reservists could not be forced out of the country?  I must not understand that rule correctly.
 
GMan87 said:
i thought that reservists could not be forced out of the country?  I must not understand that rule correctly.

I think he is referring to Reservist like me who are Component Tranferring to the Reg Frce...what you quoted has nothing in it about forcing reservists to do anything...attention to detail.  Huge difference in what you quoted and what you are saying...
 
HitorMiss said:
You want the PM to do WHAT!

Seriously your kidding right...you have any idea the political and civilian backlash that would have, heck calling up the Res in WWI and WWII was bad enough politically(especially WWI) but that's just one step away from conscription in peoples minds oh wait it really is just one step away from conscription and well look how that fared previously in our history. No what we need is to streamline the Reg F recruiting system and get some relief on the ground for some of the Senior Cpls to get time to do the PLQ which in turn would lead to more MCpl's and then of course the senior MCPL's would be free to do the DP3...see how this works my friend, the in say 3-5 years the top gap measure of civilian contractors is removed and were floating just fine.

All this is IMO of course.

I realize the political backlash would be huge, and that is why it could not be done by the Conservatives with a Minority gov't . With a majority they could explain the short term need to the Canadian public and then have the Order in Council written.

Hire the Reservists for three years, get the Armed Forces up to a level that they can fullfill their obligations over the long term and then release the Reservists. Most Reservists I know (Including me) would  serve in any way we were asked, if we had some way of protecting our civilian careers while we were gone.

The problem with the Order in Council is that has not been used enough, so there is a perception that it is only needed when the Apocalypse is nigh. Afghanistan shows the need to give the political leaders tools to aggressively employ reservists without spreading false alarm through the media and the citizenry.
 
Mud Recce Man said:
I think he is referring to Reservist like me who are Component Tranferring to the Reg Frce...what you quoted has nothing in it about forcing reservists to do anything...attention to detail.  Huge difference in what you quoted and what you are saying...
Okay I thought he was saying something along the lines of The PM does something to force reservists to join the regular forces (he didn't mention directly sending them to Afghanistan, although I assumed that they if a sodlier was forced to join the regs, it would be with the intention of deploying them.)

I'm not sure, you obviously know more than me about the military, but it didn't sound like he was talking about people choosing to transfer; but I may have interpreted it wrongly.
 
The poster might clarify for us.  However, my intent is to head off the idea, however it came up, that Reservists are being/will be forced to serve in a way they didn't volunteer for.  It doesn't take much to start a rumour, and some of the press print rumours as facts.

Lets just be careful about Terms of Service and make sure we speak facts....no reserve's are being forced to join the Reg's, or to go overseas.  Many are volunteering to go over, and to fill needed billets in the training system.

So..the Reserve is doing what it was/is meant to do.  Some of us are deploying...some are waiting to transfer to the Regular Force and some of us are filling full time positions in the training system. 
 
An order in Council calls up the Reserves for regular service. They are called up for the time required by the gov't and for the purpose decided by the gov't. There may be no need to put the Reservists into combat (although they are trying to get 560 for the next Roto) but they can be used for training and support roles. It is up to the gov't to decide.

I was trying to point out that calling up the Reserves in Canada may well be needed. It cannot be done in the current political environment without huge risks to the current government. Operationally it may be necessary, but it won't happen yet. With all that being said former training staff could be called back into service if their skills are still current enough to be of use. An Order in Council could forcibly pull them back into duty, therebye circumventing the need for "Civilian Contractors." However it would be political suicide at this point so it is cheaper to contract them to do the job that is needed.

 
Let me be clear that I have NEVER heard a rumour or heard anyone ever speak of the current gov't considering an Order in Council, I was only suggesting that it may be needed. At this point Reservists are volunteering and no one is suggesting otherwise. (As far as I know.)
 
Mud Recce Man said:
The poster might clarify for us.  However, my intent is to head off the idea, however it came up, that Reservists are being/will be forced to serve in a way they didn't volunteer for.  It doesn't take much to start a rumour, and some of the press print rumours as facts.

Lets just be careful about Terms of Service and make sure we speak facts....no reserve's are being forced to join the Reg's, or to go overseas.  Many are volunteering to go over, and to fill needed billets in the training system.

So..the Reserve is doing what it was/is meant to do.  Some of us are deploying...some are waiting to tranfer to the Regular Force and some of us are filling full time positions in the training system. 
Oh ya I understand that completely, I was just talking abou the future. Actually I wish more people would understand that every reservist in Afghanistan volunteered. I'm sure Layton doesn't mention this fact when he asks to "support the troops by bringing them home". 
 
Cardstonkid said:
An order in Council calls up the Reserves for regular service. They are called up for the time required by the gov't and for the purpose decided by the gov't. There may be no need to put the Reservists into combat (although they are trying to get 560 for the next Roto) but they can be used for training and support roles. It is up to the gov't to decide.

Okay I see, so they COULD be forced up for domestic duties (possibly related to international operations).. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
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