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Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

No.

Whilst there are tons of autonomous systems and "fixed" systems in existence, you must always think of the Arctic environment in binary terms: Ice Period (IP) and No Ice Period (NIP).

During the NIP, systems found in the South will work fine up there, including such systems as a standard warship or submarine. It's ice free and open so you just go with what you have (that, BTWE, is the period where the immense majority of "foreign" traffic occurs - be it cargo vessels, fishing vessels, research vessels or, God forbid, Cruise ships.

The IP is completely different: You just don't know what you are facing. The various "passages" between the Islands of the Canadian Arctic archipelago are not - repeat not - all very deep or wide and you just don't know deep the ice goes. And in many areas, the ice will go all the way to the bottom, crack and fall down to the sea floor when the tide goes out and refloat when it rises again, etc. etc. It is murder on any equipment you want to leave on the bottom and for any autonomous system, it completely prevents surfacing or sticking anything up to either take a fix or report on activity. Those, BTW, are also the reasons why there is little to no use whatsoever of the Canadian Arctic archipelago waters in winter by any "non-Canadian" vessels or submarines: It's too dangerous. That is not to say there are no submarines operating under the Arctic Ocean, but that is deep open ocean waters (though ice covered) that is North of the Canadian Arctic archipelago and thus, International waters.
 
Navy_Pete said:
Or, hear me out; where we have known route with choke points, we simply install underwater arrays to listen continually at a fraction of the cost and without putting sailors in harms way. Those could include an active mode pretty easily. Similarly, we could install some kind of physical barrier.

If China wants to send subs there, they will send subs there, but they don't need to put them under the Artic to be any kind of real threat. China and Russia have the entire Pacific to hide a submarine, not sure why they would go up under the Artic. They could get much closer to actual targets in North America and be able to fire from anywhere without having to worry about ice, or being unable to surface if something goes wrong.

We're getting worked up over a weird non-threat, that the AOPs really isn't set up to do, when there are plenty of more likely real threats that the RCN would struggle with (like actual combat that was more than a single volley or post battle repairs)
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You need a variety of sensors, fixed, temporary, and mobile. Fixed sensors are difficult in the Arctic, particularly in the west so you'll need short term ones.
 
With the advent of good AUV both surface and subsurface, you can monitor those waterways far more effectively than before. I still think we need to stand up a Naval Reserve unit in both the Western and Eastern Arctic. Start small and build up slowly.
 
daftandbarmy said:
View attachment 89656
Click to expand...
For anybody not aware, the story of Robert Hampton Gray and his heroism is something to consider even among the other members of the DeWolf class.

Gray was born in Trail, British Columbia and would join the Royal Canadian Navy Volunteer Reserve (RCNVR) in 1940, serving as a fighter pilot in Africa and aboard the aircraft carrier HMS Illustrious before being transferred later to HMS Formidable. This was notable as he was one of very few to qualify as Fleet Air Arm pilots at the time from his peers. Gray would be involved in multiple assaults on the German battleship Tirpitz in August 1944, suppressing enemy anti-aircraft emplacements and destroyers at very close range to help protect friendly bombers. For one of these, he would be mentioned in dispatches "For undaunted courage, skill & determination in carrying out daring attacks on the German battleship Tirpitz". His Corsair would have its rudder damaged in this attack, leading to him circling HMS Formidable for 45 minutes to not disrupt the landing order.

He would be awarded the Distinguished Service Cross for his work in attacking Japanese shipping on July 28th, apparently assisting in the sinking of a destroyer but information on this is sparse. The citation is: "For determination and address in air attacks on targets in Japan." The DSC would not officially be announced and awarded until after his death however.

Gray was planned to lead a flight of 7 Corsairs on an attack against the Japanese airfield at Matsushima however, previously bombing of the airfield had changed plans to be a search and destroy mission for targets of opportunity. The flight of Corsairs would descend on the Japanese destroyer escort Amakusa, the Minesweeper No.33, Submarine Chaser 42 and the target ship Ohama and move in from sea level to skip their 500lb bombs into the enemy vessels. Between the anti-aircraft fire from the ships present and adjacent positions in the surrounding hills, the aircraft faced a harrowing barrage. Gray's aircraft was hit multiple times, destroying one of its bombs and damaging his engine. He would press his attack, skipping his last remaining bomb into the engine room of the Amakusa before his aircraft flipped over and dove into the bay at full speed.

The remaining aircraft of the flight would sink all vessels remaining, Amakusa herself would go down shortly after with nearly half of her 150 man crew. All Corsairs left would safely return to HMS Formidable and Gray would later be awarded the Victoria Cross for the action. The citation reads:

“ADMIRALTY Whitehall, 13th November, 1945. The KING has been graciously pleased to approve the award of the VICTORIA CROSS for valour to: — the late Temporary Lieutenant Robert Hampton GRAY, R.C.N.V.R., for great valour in leading an attack on a Japanese destroyer in Onagawa Bay on 9th August, 1945. In the face of fire from shore batteries and a heavy concentration of fire from some five warships Lieutenant Gray pressed home his attack, flying very low in order to ensure success, and, although he was hit and his aircraft was in flames, he obtained at least one direct hit, sinking the destroyer. Lieutenant Gray has consistently shown a brilliant fighting spirit and most inspiring leadership.”

The second atomic bomb would be dropped a few hours later that day, and Japan would capitulate sometime later. Gray would hold many distinctions, being one of the last Canadians to die during WWII, one of the last Canadians to earn the Victoria Cross, the only member of the RCN/RCNVR to earn the Victoria Cross and the only Allied soldier to be honoured by Japanese memorial on their home soil.

rhg-onagawa_1600.jpg


The memorial was originally erected in 1989 at Sakiyama Park, overlooking Onagawa Bay, where Gray alongside nearly 200 Japanese personnel lost their lives. It would be damaged in the 2011 Earthquake and relocated elsewhere in the town however, the Gray family and the Kanda family, who were instrumental in its erection, still visit each other and the monument itself.

It would be a touching moment for the ship and its crew to make a port visit to Japan in order to pay their respects.
 
Rainbow1910 said:
For anybody not aware, the story of Robert Hampton Gray and his heroism is something to consider even among the other members of the DeWolf class.

Gray was born in Trail, British Columbia and would join the Royal Canadian Navy Volunteer Reserve (RCNVR) in 1940, serving as a fighter pilot in Africa and aboard the aircraft carrier HMS Illustrious before being transferred later to HMS Formidable. This was notable as he was one of very few to qualify as Fleet Air Arm pilots at the time from his peers. Gray would be involved in multiple assaults on the German battleship Tirpitz in August 1944, suppressing enemy anti-aircraft emplacements and destroyers at very close range to help protect friendly bombers. For one of these, he would be mentioned in dispatches "For undaunted courage, skill & determination in carrying out daring attacks on the German battleship Tirpitz". His Corsair would have its rudder damaged in this attack, leading to him circling HMS Formidable for 45 minutes to not disrupt the landing order.

He would be awarded the Distinguished Service Cross for his work in attacking Japanese shipping on July 28th, apparently assisting in the sinking of a destroyer but information on this is sparse. The citation is: "For determination and address in air attacks on targets in Japan." The DSC would not officially be announced and awarded until after his death however.

Gray was planned to lead a flight of 7 Corsairs on an attack against the Japanese airfield at Matsushima however, previously bombing of the airfield had changed plans to be a search and destroy mission for targets of opportunity. The flight of Corsairs would descend on the Japanese destroyer escort Amakusa, the Minesweeper No.33, Submarine Chaser 42 and the target ship Ohama and move in from sea level to skip their 500lb bombs into the enemy vessels. Between the anti-aircraft fire from the ships present and adjacent positions in the surrounding hills, the aircraft faced a harrowing barrage. Gray's aircraft was hit multiple times, destroying one of its bombs and damaging his engine. He would press his attack, skipping his last remaining bomb into the engine room of the Amakusa before his aircraft flipped over and dove into the bay at full speed.

The remaining aircraft of the flight would sink all vessels remaining, Amakusa herself would go down shortly after with nearly half of her 150 man crew. All Corsairs left would safely return to HMS Formidable and Gray would later be awarded the Victoria Cross for the action. The citation reads:

“ADMIRALTY Whitehall, 13th November, 1945. The KING has been graciously pleased to approve the award of the VICTORIA CROSS for valour to: — the late Temporary Lieutenant Robert Hampton GRAY, R.C.N.V.R., for great valour in leading an attack on a Japanese destroyer in Onagawa Bay on 9th August, 1945. In the face of fire from shore batteries and a heavy concentration of fire from some five warships Lieutenant Gray pressed home his attack, flying very low in order to ensure success, and, although he was hit and his aircraft was in flames, he obtained at least one direct hit, sinking the destroyer. Lieutenant Gray has consistently shown a brilliant fighting spirit and most inspiring leadership.”

The second atomic bomb would be dropped a few hours later that day, and Japan would capitulate sometime later. Gray would hold many distinctions, being one of the last Canadians to die during WWII, one of the last Canadians to earn the Victoria Cross, the only member of the RCN/RCNVR to earn the Victoria Cross and the only Allied soldier to be honoured by Japanese memorial on their home soil.

rhg-onagawa_1600.jpg


The memorial was originally erected in 1989 at Sakiyama Park, overlooking Onagawa Bay, where Gray alongside nearly 200 Japanese personnel lost their lives. It would be damaged in the 2011 Earthquake and relocated elsewhere in the town however, the Gray family and the Kanda family, who were instrumental in its erection, still visit each other and the monument itself.

It would be a touching moment for the ship and its crew to make a port visit to Japan in order to pay their respects.
Click to expand...
If RHG ends up embarking a helo, their c/s better be “Corsair”.
 
Underway said:
And the ships call sign should be Amakusa. Given the honour the Japanese gave him the least we could do is honour those lost on the ship he hit.
Click to expand...
Yeah... not so much. The IJN were instrumental in committing atrocities across the Asia-Pacific theatre. It would be like the RN using Hipper as a callsign because of this event.

Some things are still a bit to radioactive to this day to be a good idea, even if our inner history nerd thinks it might be cool.
 
Furniture said:
Yeah... not so much. The IJN were instrumental in committing atrocities across the Asia-Pacific theatre. It would be like the RN using Hipper as a callsign because of this event.

Some things are still a bit to radioactive to this day to be a good idea, even if our inner history nerd thinks it might be cool.
Click to expand...
Radioactive…I see what you did, there…
 
Since the CCG is somewhat discussed here.

This is a interesting video of the CCG work on the East coast.

The Coast Guard with the MOST COAST to guard...​

 
dimsum said:
If RHG ends up embarking a helo, their c/s better be “Corsair”.
Click to expand...
Still a long way from an embarked helo, if they ever get their. At the moment it's aspirational, with a lot of work needed. AFAIK the announced funding still is a fever dream for outyears, and the NP funding took a big cut at MEPM, so things like keeping the CPFs afloat is a bigger priority.
 
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