And what's wrong with being a socialist? / from the Sarah Palin Thread

[Snafu-Bar]

Yeah.   :-\   

  It may take a while, but eventually a person's true colours come out.

And what's wrong with being a socialist?

I'm merely pointing out the differences in our health care system compared to the US. Ours is socialist thiers is capitalist. Capitalism favours the rich while preying on the poor. Great system, it's great if your on top ...not the bottom. Rich get richer by taking advantage of the poor.

But hey i guess poor people we're meant to be left out for dead anyways right...  :

 

[George Wallace]

And what's wrong with being a socialist?

I'm merely pointing out the differences in our health care system compared to the US. Ours is socialist thiers is capitalist. Capitalism favours the rich while preying on the poor. Great system, it's great if your on top ...not the bottom. Rich get richer by taking advantage of the poor.

But hey i guess poor people we're meant to be left out for dead anyways right...  :

I have a question:  What keeps these people poor?

Is it the Federal and Provincial handouts?

Is it a medical/mental problem?

Is it a poor work ethic?

Is it that they haven't gone out and voted for some Political Party that may make a difference?

Apathy in the worker, keeps him/her poor.  Lack of a work ethic to strive to better one's condition, keeps them poor.  Dependence on receiving a Welfare Cheque, keeps them poor.  Breeding the "Welfare" mentality into their children keeps them poor. 

Many people work hard for their livings in this country, and are penalized (Taxed) by the Government in order to support these poor, so don't use them as an excuse.

 

[Donaill]

Mr Wallace your sentiments sopund alot like those sentiments heard in previous eras. That helping the poor will only teach them to stay poor.  I don't believe peopel want to stay poor. Being poor is often an affect of the society we live in. If everyone had a PhD, or was a member of the bar or what ever there would still be a need for butchers, barbers, and candle stick makers. There is always a need for someone to fill these "bottom end jobs".  Farms are not farmed automatically. They require workers. Those that choose to work on farms should not be punished because of it.  They perform a valuable act for our country, I would say even more so than a hockey player. So if we did not have social medicine or social policies to help low end workers how just would our society be? If people want an American style society than move there. Most of the top countries are socialist based, and have strong militaries and a strong sense of civil rights.

 

[George Wallace]

Mr Wallace your sentiments sopund alot like those sentiments heard in previous eras. That helping the poor will only teach them to stay poor.  I don't believe peopel want to stay poor. Being poor is often an affect of the society we live in. If everyone had a PhD, or was a member of the bar or what ever there would still be a need for butchers, barbers, and candle stick makers. There is always a need for someone to fill these "bottom end jobs".  Farms are not farmed automatically. They require workers. Those that choose to work on farms should not be punished because of it.  They perform a valuable act for our country, I would say even more so than a hockey player. So if we did not have social medicine or social policies to help low end workers how just would our society be? If people want an American style society than move there. Most of the top countries are socialist based, and have strong militaries and a strong sense of civil rights.

???

I don't consider farmers, butchers, barbers, etc. to be poor.  I consider Squeegee Kids, and Professional Welfare Cases and the guy who has staked out a section of sidewalk in front of an office building as his private and reserved spot to 'beg' as being poor.  At $250 a day of undeclared earnings, many of these people are nothing more than charlatans, but that is for another discusion.

Do you not know that Tradespeople are making more that High Tech workers.  A University Degree is a piece of paper.  Some of those people are poor.  Some are professional students, because they don't know what else to do with their lives.  It is the Trades where the money is to be made, unless you poppa is going to hand over a job as CEO of BCE to you.

 

[Donaill]

???

I don't consider farmers, butchers, barbers, etc. to be poor.  I consider Squeegee Kids, and Professional Welfare Cases and the guy who has staked out a section of sidewalk in front of an office building as his private and reserved spot to 'beg' as being poor.  At $250 a day of undeclared earnings, many of these people are nothing more than charlatans, but that is for another discusion.

Do you not know that Tradespeople are making more that High Tech workers.  A University Degree is a piece of paper.  Some of those people are poor.  Some are professional students, because they don't know what else to do with their lives.  It is the Trades where the money is to be made, unless you poppa is going to hand over a job as CEO of BCE to you.

Sorry Mr. Wallace I guess that my view of poor is anyone that lives around what is concidered the poverty line. Those are the folks that are usually working seasonal jobs, whether it is in the fisheries or agricultural work for example. Not that I was being disrespectful of you or your ideals. I was enjoying the conversation.

 

[Snafu-Bar]

I have a question:  What keeps these people poor?

Is it the Federal and Provincial handouts? - welfare for some does go back generations... of those most are/we're career criminals and have no use for society other than leech it dry.

Is it a medical/mental problem?- some people are not like others, and yes some of those are dependant on medical aid.

Is it a poor work ethic?- yes and no. Some companies only hire "like minded individuals" to fill thier workforce, anyone found not like the others... well back to the start..

Is it that they haven't gone out and voted for some Political Party that may make a difference?- No because the government is an extension of the people, thus the people who have influence within the government make the change, usually those who are less off have less effect on change.

Apathy in the worker, keeps him/her poor.  Lack of a work ethic to strive to better one's condition, keeps them poor.  Dependence on receiving a Welfare Cheque, keeps them poor.  Breeding the "Welfare" mentality into their children keeps them poor. 

Many people work hard for their livings in this country, and are penalized (Taxed) by the Government in order to support these poor, so don't use them as an excuse.- I wasn't debating the lack of willpower in ones self or doing thier, i was debating the fact we are ALL in the boat together, ROW or get the fk out of the boat.

The governemnt started a workfare program to get the BUMS off the dole and start doing usefull things to earn thier keep. We used to have a prison system that done the same, our government is responsible for those two changes, thus the people are responsible for allowing the government to do so. Socialism does not mean the poor get a free ride off the rich. It's a one system for all that the poor do not get excluded from because of thier financial standing within the populous. The rich can afford things, the poor cannot. The rich can pay for extended education, the poor cannot. The rich have open doors, the poor do not. So take your holier than thou, woe is me for being on a better more expensive ikea pedestool...

Poor person wants a job(blue collar),(white collar) rich person with job says no we don't want you, you don't qualify. Rich person gets job poor person gets fkd again. Welcome to Capitalism

Untill education is treated like our health care system the poor will stay poor and the rich will continue to take advantage of them, look down apon them and well you get idea...
Remeber this... anyone can TRY but there is ALWAYS someone else who says yes or no. So no matter what the idividual does there is going to be someone else dictating what you can or cannot do.

Cheers.

 

[GAP]

Sorry GAP. I feel safe in saying that topics about US politics have been touching a greater nerve within Canadian society. I see many people questioning who we are and what we stand for.  Personally I would not want a Canada that is based upon a Republican US. I do hope that Obama gets elected, as I see McCain as nothing more than a Bush family puppet.

It is an interesting discussion, but it should be focused in it's own thread....

 

[Snafu-Bar]

???

I don't consider farmers, butchers, barbers, etc. to be poor.  I consider Squeegee Kids, and Professional Welfare Cases and the guy who has staked out a section of sidewalk in front of an office building as his private and reserved spot to 'beg' as being poor.  At $250 a day of undeclared earnings, many of these people are nothing more than charlatans, but that is for another discusion.

Do you not know that Tradespeople are making more that High Tech workers.  A University Degree is a piece of paper.  Some of those people are poor.  Some are professional students, because they don't know what else to do with their lives.  It is the Trades where the money is to be made, unless you poppa is going to hand over a job as CEO of BCE to you.

Socialism is not the bad guy here. It's implementation and regulation IS.

Career loafers aren't going to change without being forced into having no choice. If they have access to getting a free ride they WILL take it. But the average person who IS trying but isn't getting any help to further thier economic statures should be given the access and resources available to make the step up. Right now not many are willing to lend a helping hand with regards to getting a better education or loan the money to do so. Banks require assets to garner a student loan, most people applying that don't have anything the banks want in the way of collateral and are thus rejected.

Homeless poeple have nothing, and get little or no help, no welfare and have no chance to rejoin the rest of us. Without an address no cheques get delivered.

The government used to have a workfare program that companies could participate in and get some tax reflief for helping put people to work. We also used to have a similar function within the prison system, the government has removed both programs.

Instead of welfare cheques there should be mandatory courses or on the job training required to get any social assistance. thus making the system "functional" the people who don't need help participate only through taxes, the ones using the system make use of the system long enough to start participating like the rest in paying the taxes.

Everyone in the boat, everyone rows the boat. The better off people will have softer seating, and fancy oars  ;D ...the rest will be envious of your seats and oars and seek to get thier own.

Cheers.

 

[Danjanou]

As someone who works front line in the "poverty industry" welfare/state apparatus whatever we want to call it this week, and has for some time now, I think I qualify as the site’s SME on the subject.

Sorry to disillusion those in their ivory towers but George is for the most part bang on. Including his separation of the working poor and those who prefer to milk the generous system we as a society have naively created.

Those at higher pay levels than me are more concerned about continuing and expanding their fiefdoms than actually solving the problem. Poverty is a growth industry in this country boys and girls, deal with it. Before he became Taliban Jack, and forsook municipal politics for perpetual obscurity in Ottawas old Layton the Patron Saint of the sound bite made both money and fame off of it.

BTW nothing wrong with being a socialist that I can see, nothing wrong with riding the short bus to school either. For the former though I seriously doubt much sympathy for you political preaching here though bud. Better luck back at http://www.rabble.ca/babble/

 

[George Wallace]

I have a question:  What keeps these people poor?

Is it the Federal and Provincial handouts? - welfare for some does go back generations... of those most are/we're career criminals and have no use for society other than leech it dry.I would say that is a very insulting remark to Maritimers and others across this land who have Seasonal Jobs.

Is it a medical/mental problem?- some people are not like others, and yes some of those are dependant on medical aid.These are legitimate poor and a failure in our Health Care System......ON this I will agree with you.

Is it a poor work ethic?- yes and no. Some companies only hire "like minded individuals" to fill thier workforce, anyone found not like the others... well back to the start..Bull!  Don't blame "Companies" for the work ethic of the workers.  A couch potato is not the result of some big Corporation.  It is a lazy SOB.

Is it that they haven't gone out and voted for some Political Party that may make a difference?- No because the government is an extension of the people, thus the people who have influence within the government make the change, usually those who are less off have less effect on change. When the people don't partake in the government and vote, then they are at fault, not the elected government; the government elected by those who chose to vote and take part in the political process.  You don't have to be RICH to vote.

Apathy in the worker, keeps him/her poor.  Lack of a work ethic to strive to better one's condition, keeps them poor.  Dependence on receiving a Welfare Cheque, keeps them poor.  Breeding the "Welfare" mentality into their children keeps them poor. 

Many people work hard for their livings in this country, and are penalized (Taxed) by the Government in order to support these poor, so don't use them as an excuse.- I wasn't debating the lack of willpower in ones self or doing thier, i was debating the fact we are ALL in the boat together, ROW or get the fk out of the boat.It seems some of us have to row more than others; some who insist on not rowing at all, but collecting all the benefits.
 

The governemnt started a workfare program to get the BUMS off the dole and start doing usefull things to earn thier keep. We used to have a prison system that done the same, our government is responsible for those two changes, thus the people are responsible for allowing the government to do so. Socialism does not mean the poor get a free ride off the rich. It's a one system for all that the poor do not get excluded from because of thier financial standing within the populous. The rich can afford things, the poor cannot. The rich can pay for extended education, the poor cannot. The rich have open doors, the poor do not. So take your holier than thou, woe is me for being on a better more expensive ikea pedestool...

Poor person wants a job(blue collar),(white collar) rich person with job says no we don't want you, you don't qualify. Rich person gets job poor person gets fkd again. Welcome to Capitalism

Untill education is treated like our health care system the poor will stay poor and the rich will continue to take advantage of them, look down apon them and well you get idea...
Remeber this... anyone can TRY but there is ALWAYS someone else who says yes or no. So no matter what the idividual does there is going to be someone else dictating what you can or cannot do.

Cheers.

Yes.  I remember "Workfare" and thought it a good idea.  Unfortunately, the Left thought it was demeaning and forced the government to drop it.  The same goes for our Prison System.  The Left thought it was too demeaning to make prisoners do menial labour, so now they have TVs and other 'necessities' as well as free access to institutes of Higher Learning.  So take your whining about socialism and stick it.  It was the socialists who brought about these changes.

You know the thing about Capitalism, if you don't like your situation in life, you can work and change it.  With Socialism and Communism, all pigs are equal; except some pigs are more equal than others.  (Sorry......Just had to bring in a bit of Animal Farm.)

 

[Rodahn]

Disillusioned again, here I had thought this was about being a social drinker..... You know the type, the one that goes into a bar with a friend who orders a beer, and he states "so shall I"...

 

[Adamant]

I don't consider farmers, butchers, barbers, etc. to be poor.  

Unfortunately the Poverty Line and the economy don't necessarily agree with you

Do you not know that Tradespeople are making more that High Tech workers.  

Ask an apprentice electrician who is working for 8 bucks an hour with a wife and kids if he's making more than a high tech worker.

The fact of the matter is that these social programmes need to be there as a safety net.  Are people going to abuse them yes.  That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist.

 

[George Wallace]

Ask an apprentice electrician who is working for 8 bucks an hour with a wife and kids if he's making more than a high tech worker.

The fact of the matter is that these social programmes need to be there as a safety net.  Are people going to abuse them yes.  That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist.

OK?  Have you asked a High Tech worker with a wife and kids how he is making do?

I think you will be surprised.

 

[Snafu-Bar]

Spin the words any which way you like George. I didn't call seasonal workers "loafers" they are stuck in the system part way on both sides and they are classed as TRYING to get better. I was however agreeing with the handmedown welfare family that spans atleast two generations without trying to do anything but collect the free ride.

 A functional system that encouranges people to get out there and do thier part is far better than a system that leaves an ever wideneing gap between have's and havenot's.

Our education system and lack of access for those who cannot afford it are the biggest drawbacks right now. Companies are scrambling for people and the government would rather "import" than look after it's own.

That right there IS why we have people sitting on thier asses collecting a free ride.

Everyone can play thier part in rowing the boat, everyone can pull the same weight, but not everyone HAS access to the same education or the opportunites that come from it.  Information was thought to be FREE, untill some greedy bastard said to hell with it, i want a platinum oar with jewels all over it and a silk cushion embroidered in gold thread, driving up the costs of getting a basic oar and wooden bench.

Cheers.

 

[Adamant]

OK?  Have you asked a High Tech worker with a wife and kids how he is making do?

I think you will be surprised.

As a matter of fact, I brought up the electrician example as I have close friends who are both in the high tech side and the electrcian side and the high tech people I know make between 12-15 an hour, it's still not a whole lot but it's almost double what the apprentices are making.

Working youself out of poverty is not always a choice.  Can it be done, certainly, is welfare an unfortunate necessity, yes.  

I do agree with you about the jail comment.  Prisoners would not have anything beyond a matress and walls....tv's be damned...welcome to punishment.  They have committed a crime though, last I checked the majority of poor hadn't, and shouldn't be punished for being poor.

 

[Danjanou]

Homeless poeple have nothing, and get little or no help, no welfare and have no chance to rejoin the rest of us. Without an address no cheques get delivered.

Sorry but they either pick them up or use Direct Deposit. Actually the resources available to the underhoused are rather large. Using St Jack's raher inflated numbers on homeless in Toronto I calculated it woks out to about $80,000.00 per homeless in addition to their monthly Ontario Works payments.

  Instead of welfare cheques there should be mandatory courses or on the job training required to get any social assistance.

Well technically this exists under the Ontario Works Act. However the loopholes and restrictions available for those who would most benefit from it are rather endless.  Basically it works like this:

“These are the rules, to remain eligible for you assistance you are required to follow these rules. However if for whatever reason you choose not to follow the rules that’s ok, here’s your cheque anyway.”

Everyone in the boat, everyone rows the boat. The better off people will have softer seating, and fancy oars  ;D ...the rest will be envious of your seats and oars and seek to get thier own.

You forgot that little group in the back of the boat that decided to throw their oars away  and now sit there “yelling are we there yet” while the rest of us have to row harder.

 

[Redeye]

Yes.  I remember "Workfare" and thought it a good idea.  Unfortunately, the Left thought it was demeaning and forced the government to drop it.  The same goes for our Prison System.  The Left thought it was too demeaning to make prisoners do menial labour, so now they have TVs and other 'necessities' as well as free access to institutes of Higher Learning.  So take your whining about socialism and stick it.  It was the socialists who brought about these changes.

You know the thing about Capitalism, if you don't like your situation in life, you can work and change it.  With Socialism and Communism, all pigs are equal; except some pigs are more equal than others.  (Sorry......Just had to bring in a bit of Animal Farm.)

Workfare was a good idea - and still is, it's too bad the loons on the left don't like it - as long as the work is dignified and the pay received is fair there are plenty of civil projects these folks could be directed to - infrastructure projects use unskilled labour - even civic beautification - have those folks who can do so out maintaining parks and so on, with a view to teaching them skills they can put to work.  I don't really understand the mindset of a career welfare recipient - the idea of not working sounds awful to me and I would loathe to feel I had no ambition like that.

That said George, I don't really buy into the capitalist idea that you can work and change it - you can to an extend, but those animals that are more equal to the others in any system, well, they're staying put and a kid with a public education and a middle class upbringing isn't likely to get into that club too easily.  I don't think a truly socialist system is better though, one only needs to look at the follies of socialist countries to see that.  That's why I think our system overall is alright despite their being some room to improve.  Everyone gets a good shot at moving up, and there's nets that will catch everyone that wants to be caught.  You will always have those who won't take the help - there's homeless people everywhere who won't conform to the rules needs to get them out of their situation - but by and large you can get by through adversity and get a little ahead if you try.

My non-military day job is as a financial planner, and believe me there's tradespeople and labourers and so on who do very, very well for themselves.  My barber has a nice cottage in Muskoka, and a place in Florida, a boat, a nice car, and all that.  He came to Canada with absolutely nothing but his barber's license from Germany not too long after the war as a young man and that's where he's gotten himself.

 

[George Wallace]

As a matter of fact, I brought up the electrician example as I have close friends who are both in the high tech side and the electrcian side and the high tech people I know make between 12-15 an hour, it's still not a whole lot but it's almost double what the apprentices are making.

Oops.....There is the rub.  He is an apprentice.  Once he is a fully certified Electrician, he will be making two to three times as much.  Back in the 70's, my cousin was a Carpenter's assistant in Noranda Mines, Underground, and he was making $12 to $16 an hour.  All had to do was carry a tool box for the Carpenter.  Even I could get off my ass and look for a better job, but I am too lazy to leave what I am doing now, so I can even use myself as an example of what is wrong.

 

[Snafu-Bar]

Sorry but they either pick them up or use Direct Deposit. Actually the resources available to the underhoused are rather large. Using St Jack's raher inflated numbers on homeless in Toronto I calculated it woks out to about $80,000.00 per homeless in addition to their monthly Ontario Works payments.

Well technically this exists under the Ontario Works Act. However the loopholes and restrictions available for those who would most benefit from it are rather endless.  Basically it works like this:

“These are the rules, to remain eligible for you assistance you are required to follow these rules. However if for whatever reason you choose not to follow the rules that’s ok, here’s your cheque anyway.”

You forgot that little group in the back of the boat that decided to throw their oars away  and now sit there “yelling are we there yet” while the rest of us have to row harder.

Like i already stated it's not the system it's the implementation and lack of regulation that's hurting it.

The governement or the regulating body needs to get it's collective act together and make a stand. Either fix it or scrap it, status quo does nothing usefull.

"give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he can feed himself.(with the excpetion of those who can't afford the license do so without breaking a law)

 

[George Wallace]

Our education system and lack of access for those who cannot afford it are the biggest drawbacks right now.

Everyone in this country is getting a High School Education, with the exceptions of those who drop out and become leeches on society.  A University Education is a privilege that should be earned.  As is now, to many are abusing social and economic programs to get into university and dumbing down our Degree System.  Don't complain that there are no programs to assist students.  There are hundreds of programs and initiatives.  Student Loans.  Bursaries.  Aboriginal Programs.  Corporate Programs.  Government Programs.  The CF is one of the largest contributors towards giving High School students an university education through ROTP.  So don't complain there.

Companies are scrambling for people and the government would rather "import" than look after it's own.

That right there IS why we have people sitting on thier asses collecting a free ride.

That sounds a little racist, but I would point out that the jobs that many of these immigrants are filling is due to fact that many "Canadians" feel that the jobs are below their dignity.  Funny how a job can be below the dignity of a person with no income.

Everyone can play thier part in rowing the boat, everyone can pull the same weight, but not everyone HAS access to the same education or the opportunites that come from it.  Information was thought to be FREE, untill some greedy bastard said to hell with it, i want a platinum oar with jewels all over it and a silk cushion embroidered in gold thread, driving up the costs of getting a basic oar and wooden bench.

As I pointed out before, as did another, it is great that we are all in the same boat, but those who refuse to row, but demand the same benefits as those who do, are the ones who are bringing down the system.