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All things Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV)

HiTechComms

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Funny how on January 9th Ontario health redefined PCR test results from above 30 cycles to under 30 cycles.
WHO did the same on January 6th.

Its now a Sniffles Challenge. We must stop people from getting the Sniffles because the people might go to the doctor.

All this to save the Health Care from being over run. Which leads me to shower thoughts:
  1. Health Care is a right in Canada and then why am I rationing my right to healthcare.. I don't ration my freedom of speech because I may run out of it.
  2. If you work in Health care you are a public servant.. So shouldn't you serve the Public?
  3. Health Care is over run during normal Flu season so why are we concerned with the Cold?
  4. Efficiency and bang for your buck is at 80% utilization rate of any resource so how come with all the bailout money didn't we build any more hospitals?
  5. Why can't I call it Chinese/Wuhan Virus, Chinese make up a large majority of the worlds population compared to my Easter European ethnicity?
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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Certain health care is a right......you can argue drugs are health care,...not covered,....ambulance are health care,...not covered, good dental,...guess?

Methinks you need to start your argument with a firmer number 1 before you try and count higher.
 

blacktriangle

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Certain health care is a right......you can argue drugs are health care,...not covered,....ambulance are health care,...not covered, good dental,...guess?

Methinks you need to start your argument with a firmer number 1 before you try and count higher.
I think he's on to something with #3 though...

Apparently our hospitals & healthcare system in general are always on the brink of being overwhelmed. So perhaps we should focus on actually doing something about that? Obviously it won't help us with the first or second wave of this crisis, but when the 10th wave (or something else entirely) comes along, it would be nice to have learned something from this and adjusted accordingly.

I'd also be curious how much "HQ bloat" exists in the system.
 

brihard

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Funny how on January 9th Ontario health redefined PCR test results from above 30 cycles to under 30 cycles.
WHO did the same on January 6th.

Its now a Sniffles Challenge. We must stop people from getting the Sniffles because the people might go to the doctor.

All this to save the Health Care from being over run. Which leads me to shower thoughts:
  1. Health Care is a right in Canada and then why am I rationing my right to healthcare.. I don't ration my freedom of speech because I may run out of it.
  2. If you work in Health care you are a public servant.. So shouldn't you serve the Public?
  3. Health Care is over run during normal Flu season so why are we concerned with the Cold?
  4. Efficiency and bang for your buck is at 80% utilization rate of any resource so how come with all the bailout money didn't we build any more hospitals?
  5. Why can't I call it Chinese/Wuhan Virus, Chinese make up a large majority of the worlds population compared to my Easter European ethnicity?

Let me know how far your 'right' to health care carries you if the beds are physically full, and if there literally are not the necessary critical care staff, respiratory therapists, etc to actually provide care. The measures to date have been to keep demand within the ability to supply, because you cannot generate those people out of thin air when more are needed. All of those capable of working intensive care have been balls to the wall for nearly a year. If you think there's any deficiency in how much those particular 'public servants' (critical care and supporting staff) are serving the public, you're deluded. While Ontario, for instance, is trending down, some ICUs were running well over 100% capacity, patients were being transferred to much less affected regions, and as a province we were very close to ICUs having to decide who would be denied lifesaving care because there is eventually a finite number of ventilators that can be hooked up to patients and monitored.

Building 'good enough' physical facilities in a crunch is the easy part. The choke point is the qualified staff to run them.
 

daftandbarmy

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Just wait until some of those viruses frozen under the ice of the Arctic or Antarctica start to warm up, reanimate, and become airborne as the ice melts. Or some alien virus living in frozen ice ends up on Earth from a meteorite burning through the atmosphere on it's way in.

Might just make this Covid thing look like nonsense ;)

Efficiency and bang for your buck is at 80% utilization rate of any resource so how come with all the bailout money didn't we build any more hospitals?

I know a few of the the people who plan and build hospitals out this way. Luckily, even though many of them happen to be public servants, they are very concerned with how much hard earned taxpayers money gets spent on what, and when. Consequently, they do alot of analysis and consultation, and have been getting really good at getting the 'biggest bang for the buck' out of the existing capacity.

If we didn't have social distancing, and other COVID mitigating activities, going on we'd need about 3 times the number of hospitals we have now.... for a few months. This would likely 'waste' many $ billions.

Oh, and as I understand it, it takes about four of five years to plan and build a new hospital in a cost effective, fully engaged with the public, kind of way.
 

Blackadder1916

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  1. If you work in Health care you are a public servant.. So shouldn't you serve the Public

No, health care workers are not, necessarily, public servants. Only those who work for the government. The majority of primary contacts (visits to a health care provider, i.e. doctor, with an initial complaint) are with family physicians or a doc in the box (walk-in clinics). Those are predominately private businesses. The doctors are small businessmen/women who operate their own shops either individually or in groups, or contract a private company to provide the facilities and staff they need to practice (I used to work for one of those private companies). Even most specialists, the guys most think of when they see a doc in a white coat doing rounds in a hospital, are not government employees even though they may be doing most of their work in a "government owned" hospital. Some may receive partial remuneration by salary (more so if they have some management duties in addition to their clinical role), but mostly they are paid by billing the provincial health insurance plan for the services they render, probably just the same as if the company you work for provided service to a government agency - send them a bill and the government pays it - does it make you a public servant.

I could go on about other "health care workers" - pharmacists, physiotherapists, chiropractors, dentists, long term care workers . . . and the employment relationships they have (or not have) with government.
 

Brad Sallows

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"Rights" can usually be divided into positive rights (entitlements and powers) and negative rights (freedoms and immunities). Positive rights require others to provide the means. Negative rights require only non-interference.

Health care is an entitlement. Freedom of speech is a freedom. Since public resources are finite, the right to health care is subject to a lot of boundaries.
 

HiTechComms

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"Rights" can usually be divided into positive rights (entitlements and powers) and negative rights (freedoms and immunities). Positive rights require others to provide the means. Negative rights require only non-interference.

Health care is an entitlement. Freedom of speech is a freedom. Since public resources are finite, the right to health care is subject to a lot of boundaries.
Some one finally brought it up. Ding Ding you are a winner on spotting my point.

Most "Canadians" will never spot these as they are spoiled entitled brats. As my recently deceased Grandmother (which died in isolation and I couldn't see her, no she didn't die of the virus, she died because she was old) said, "Always people want to take care of things with some one else's hands and wallets".

Covid just like everything else made in China is not very good because it simply is bad at what it does. Statistically medical errors kill more Canadians per year then this less then stellar virus has.

At least there is a silver lining, no one is going to hospitals or seeing incompetant medical staff that were more likely to kill them with an error than COVID.. So I guess all in all we are saving lives.
 

HiTechComms

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No, health care workers are not, necessarily, public servants. Only those who work for the government. The majority of primary contacts (visits to a health care provider, i.e. doctor, with an initial complaint) are with family physicians or a doc in the box (walk-in clinics). Those are predominately private businesses. The doctors are small businessmen/women who operate their own shops either individually or in groups, or contract a private company to provide the facilities and staff they need to practice (I used to work for one of those private companies). Even most specialists, the guys most think of when they see a doc in a white coat doing rounds in a hospital, are not government employees even though they may be doing most of their work in a "government owned" hospital. Some may receive partial remuneration by salary (more so if they have some management duties in addition to their clinical role), but mostly they are paid by billing the provincial health insurance plan for the services they render, probably just the same as if the company you work for provided service to a government agency - send them a bill and the government pays it - does it make you a public servant.

I could go on about other "health care workers" - pharmacists, physiotherapists, chiropractors, dentists, long term care workers . . . and the employment relationships they have (or not have) with government.
I was referring to the ones that get paid by the government.
 

lenaitch

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I was referring to the ones that get paid by the government.
That would narrow it down to Indigenous Affairs (or whatever it's called now) and any federal/provincial government department that has its own medical staff. My B-in-L is a regional coroner; he would be a civil servant, although he generally deals with patients with a decidedly poor outcome.
 

blacktriangle

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Covid just like everything else made in China is not very good because it simply is bad at what it does. Statistically medical errors kill more Canadians per year then this less then stellar virus has.
Not wanting to drift the thread back to the origins of the virus, but...if the virus was engineered or released purposefully, did it ever occur to you that the intent was not to kill the most people? Perhaps it was intended to disrupt economies, overwhelm healthcare infrastructure, and create chaos? If so, it worked.
 

HiTechComms

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I know a few of the the people who plan and build hospitals out this way. Luckily, even though many of them happen to be public servants, they are very concerned with how much hard earned taxpayers money gets spent on what, and when. Consequently, they do alot of analysis and consultation, and have been getting really good at getting the 'biggest bang for the buck' out of the existing capacity.

If we didn't have social distancing, and other COVID mitigating activities, going on we'd need about 3 times the number of hospitals we have now.... for a few months. This would likely 'waste' many $ billions.

Oh, and as I understand it, it takes about four of five years to plan and build a new hospital in a cost effective, fully engaged with the public, kind of way.
Government doing anything "cost" effective is an oxymoron. Time and Time again government has proven have no accountability to cost effectiveness.

Masks and social distancing to do what? Flatten the curve? to save the health care?

Yet

Maybe everyone should start with Flattening their FAT GUTS. This country is full of Obesse people which incidentally is the number 1 comorbidity in Covid related sickness. Obesity related sickness kills more people per year then this disease ever will.
If government would truly care maybe they would try and do something about this pandemic first.
What about Opiod pandemic, in BC we had more people die of OD's then this disease.

I just think politicians just make a big deal out of this disease because
1. They are OLD
2. They are FAT
3. They are afraid for them selves and no one else.

If anyone with an inkling of common sense looked at the statistics would realize that the "cure" is far worse then the disease at this point and the certified political geniuses we idiotically elected are doubling down on non science.

To those that will argue your killing Grandma..

Yeah my grandma did die I will never see her and most likely neither my grandpa not because of COVID but because lack of care because the Public sector pukes were to afraid to their job that tax money pays for them.. Thank god I can afford to pay for private care for them because the public sector failed them miserably.

I am oh so tired of this moral panic over natural state of things (people will die because they are weak and frail). Canada has a lot of OLD, FAT people. Western Countries have garbage demographics. Compare us to India.
 

HiTechComms

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Not wanting to drift the thread back to the origins of the virus, but...if the virus was engineered or released purposefully, did it ever occur to you that the intent was not to kill the most people? Perhaps it was intended to disrupt economies, overwhelm healthcare infrastructure, and create chaos? If so, it worked.
It did. I was born in a Socialist utopia and escaped from it. This was what they did. Never trust a commie.
 

FM07

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Government doing anything "cost" effective is an oxymoron. Time and Time again government has proven have no accountability to cost effectiveness.

Masks and social distancing to do what? Flatten the curve? to save the health care?

Yet

Maybe everyone should start with Flattening their FAT GUTS. This country is full of Obesse people which incidentally is the number 1 comorbidity in Covid related sickness. Obesity related sickness kills more people per year then this disease ever will.
If government would truly care maybe they would try and do something about this pandemic first.
What about Opiod pandemic, in BC we had more people die of OD's then this disease.

I just think politicians just make a big deal out of this disease because
1. They are OLD
2. They are FAT
3. They are afraid for them selves and no one else.

If anyone with an inkling of common sense looked at the statistics would realize that the "cure" is far worse then the disease at this point and the certified political geniuses we idiotically elected are doubling down on non science.

To those that will argue your killing Grandma..

Yeah my grandma did die I will never see her and most likely neither my grandpa not because of COVID but because lack of care because the Public sector pukes were to afraid to their job that tax money pays for them.. Thank god I can afford to pay for private care for them because the public sector failed them miserably.

I am oh so tired of this moral panic over natural state of things (people will die because they are weak and frail). Canada has a lot of OLD, FAT people. Western Countries have garbage demographics. Compare us to India.
There are way too many fat people in the west. So much so that the pentagon chief stated that if a draft was to occur, there would be so many obese people that it would constitute a national security crisis. Terrible.
 

lenaitch

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Funny how on January 9th Ontario health redefined PCR test results from above 30 cycles to under 30 cycles.
WHO did the same on January 6th.

Its now a Sniffles Challenge. We must stop people from getting the Sniffles because the people might go to the doctor.

All this to save the Health Care from being over run. Which leads me to shower thoughts:
  1. Health Care is a right in Canada and then why am I rationing my right to healthcare.. I don't ration my freedom of speech because I may run out of it.
  2. If you work in Health care you are a public servant.. So shouldn't you serve the Public?
  3. Health Care is over run during normal Flu season so why are we concerned with the Cold?
  4. Efficiency and bang for your buck is at 80% utilization rate of any resource so how come with all the bailout money didn't we build any more hospitals?
  5. Why can't I call it Chinese/Wuhan Virus, Chinese make up a large majority of the worlds population compared to my Easter European ethnicity?

1. No it's not. Technically, it could be disbanded tomorrow. If it were a right, foreign citizens injured would be covered because the SCOC ruled in 1985 that the Charter applies to all on Canadian soil.

2. Answered above.

3. Health care is stressed during flu season, but not overrun. The WHO estimates about 650,009 people worldwide die form diseases linked to influenza. One year in, the US alone has lost ~468,000 to Covid.; worldwide it is estimated to be about 2,350,000. Common cold indeed.

4. Given that we are about one year in, I imagine it takes several years just to plan a hospital let alone build one.

5. You call call it whatever you like, although I will grant that there seems to be some 'sensitivities' around it, probably because Trump was trying to weaponize the term. There seems to be little angst calling the variants by their country of origin.
 

Weinie

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There are way too many fat people in the west. So much so that the pentagon chief stated that if a draft was to occur, there would be so many obese people that it would constitute a national security crisis. Terrible.
Hey, I am on here. :p

And there are also very many entitled, whiny, narcissistic, opinionated people, who hide behind the anonymity of the Internet and cast aspersions on all and sundry, based on their tantrum of the moment. When I grew up, saying something derogatory like this to someone's face would likely get you a punch in the head, and rightly so. Fast forward 40 years, and it is the Wild West all over again, except that transgressors don't get killed in a gunfight. Pity that, because one effect it had was "pour encourager les autres"
 

CBH99

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Hey, maybe the virus was created in the U.S. and then someone took it to China!

"Of particular concern are mishaps occurring at institutions working with the world's most dangerous pathogens in biosafety level 3 and 4 labs — the two highest levels of containment that have proliferated since the 9/11 terror attacks in 2001. Yet there is no publicly available list of these labs, and the scope of their research and safety records are largely unknown to most state health departments charged with responding to disease outbreaks. Even the federal government doesn't know where they all are, the Government Accountability Office has warned for years."

Inside America's secretive biolabs
The idea that the US government does not know where some of the biolabs are that study extremely dangerous pathogens is a wee bit concerning...
 

CBH99

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I think he's on to something with #3 though...

Apparently our hospitals & healthcare system in general are always on the brink of being overwhelmed. So perhaps we should focus on actually doing something about that? Obviously it won't help us with the first or second wave of this crisis, but when the 10th wave (or something else entirely) comes along, it would be nice to have learned something from this and adjusted accordingly.

I'd also be curious how much "HQ bloat" exists in the system.
I worked in a very large & busy hospital for about a year, while transitioning into my current job.

Just to clarify something in regards to what you wrote here - the media & politicians tend to get the details wrong. (Shocking, I know...the two smartest kinds of people society has to offer.)

- ICU's are typically ALWAYS busy. It's actually quite rare that they AREN'T busy. (While sufficient capacity needs to exist, they always tend to be quite busy regardless of how big you make them.)

- I know in Calgary & Edmonton areas, one of the things that creates such a problem for hospitals is that some people use the hospital as they would their neighbourhood GP. People come into the ER 'ALL THE TIME' with absolute nonsense...headaches, the sniffles, "I think I might have a cold" - etc etc. It is dealing with these people (and there are so many more than I ever realized) that is a considerable drain on space & resources, when they could just go to their local doctor.


As for HQ bloat, it's terrifying. Bloat is probably the most polite word I could think of to describe it - and you don't even want to know the salaries of the bloated butts that constitute the bloat. (It's such a blatant waste of taxpayer money, it should honestly be illegal.)
 
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