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All things Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV)

mariomike

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Florida: Population 21.5M, 25K COVID deaths. Ontario population 14.5M, 5.7K COVID deaths. Canada population 38M, 19K COVID deaths.

But don't let facts intrude on your opinions.
As the Sunshine State is a tourist destination, perhaps some out-of-state / province Covid infections occurred there. While their deaths occurred in their home states and provinces? And perhaps Covid was spread to others when vacationers returned home?

Spring Break "super-spreaders" returning home, for example,

 

Quirky

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So the solution is to stop testing, stop reporting and remove restrictions and let the virus run uncontrolled?

Wear a mask, get the vaccine (when you can), protect the most vulnerable ages and those with comorbidities. Open schools, economies and industry. We are so focused on daily case counts we forget about everything else. Completely worrying about physical health only goes so far until people start to lose it mentally due to other factors. This country can't afford to pay people to stay at home, first time in history our gross debt of Canada's 3 levels of gov is bigger than our entire economy. This is a hole we won't climb out of.

Just say screw it and hope you and your loved ones make it through ok?
I'll be fine, or not, but I'll live. I have a higher chance of winning the lotto-max than dying from covid. Expecting the local business down the road to shutdown and go bankrupt on my behalf is extremely selfish.
 

HiTechComms

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Adjusted for population, Florida has about 250% Ontario’s death rate. By your figures it has about 125% our population of seniors. Florida and Ontario actually have obesity rates within a couple % of each other. Unemployment rates are within a percentage of each other. Yet that pesky double death rate remains. I would suggest the possibility that the purported factors and figures you’re relying on don’t actually support your position the way you do.
You do realize that the higher the population density is not a linear relationship. Population density is conveniently being omitted here.
I guarantee if you plot the actual trends they would be identical. North and South Dakota for example.

Average stay in LTC is 2.5 years and we are in year 1 of the flattening the curve. I guess everyone will live forever.
So hey everyone lets nearly collapse our economy and have no plan what so ever, but you know lets save the elderly at any cost, including all liberties and freedoms. We keep printing money yet we have built no hospitals, and covid cases keep going up when everything is locked down?

Which begs the question.. So if a conflict breaks out can a soldier refuse to get sent in because he might catch a "lead cold"?
If we make all these moral arguments can we make the moral argument to disband the military because "people will die" so why take any chances.
 

daftandbarmy

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If we make all these moral arguments can we make the moral argument to disband the military because "people will die" so why take any chances.

“So far, about morals, I know only that what is moral is what you feel good after and what is immoral is what you feel bad after.”

― Ernest Hemingway
 

Kilted

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It amazes me people are still going out and getting tested when they have mild symptoms. Sit in a line up for hours, get your brain swabbed then rely on an inaccurate PCR result that could sequester you for 2 weeks in your home. All these lockdowns and curfews are based on daily case numbers that freak people out, yet they keep lining up in droves when they have a scratchy throat or runny nose. If you are a single person on an income that's dependent on you going to work, what incentive do you have to get yourself a positive test and stay home for 2 weeks? You take away the crazy daily case numbers and life would go back to normal.
And if you yell 'Contact!' after an ND/UD it never happened.
 

Navy_Pete

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You do realize that the higher the population density is not a linear relationship. Population density is conveniently being omitted here.
I guarantee if you plot the actual trends they would be identical. North and South Dakota for example.

Care to expand? Florida has a bit over 21 million people to Ontario's 14 million, and has 1.25M cases with 25k deaths, vice Ontario's 260k cases and 5k deaths.

If you compare cities while adjusting for population density they are still higher by a lot for COVID incidence.

They were really late to implement any mask protocols, and have a lot of non-compliance, so guess that's probably a factor, but it's not just a simple A+B situation.

I think it's a really complex relationship between a number of different factors that I don't have any expertise in, so not going to guess at why, but not really clear why you think that adjusting for pop density would make them identical. Most of Ontario lives right on the 401 corridor, with the majority within a two hour drive of downtown Toronto, so not even clear what you would use
 

HiTechComms

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Care to expand? Florida has a bit over 21 million people to Ontario's 14 million, and has 1.25M cases with 25k deaths, vice Ontario's 260k cases and 5k deaths.

If you compare cities while adjusting for population density they are still higher by a lot for COVID incidence.

They were really late to implement any mask protocols, and have a lot of non-compliance, so guess that's probably a factor, but it's not just a simple A+B situation.

I think it's a really complex relationship between a number of different factors that I don't have any expertise in, so not going to guess at why, but not really clear why you think that adjusting for pop density would make them identical. Most of Ontario lives right on the 401 corridor, with the majority within a two hour drive of downtown Toronto, so not even clear what you would use
Density of population vs any problem is almost in any case not a linear correlation. That was one point. Because the defacto argument is always a adjusted for population but not density or demographics.

We are simply looking at one side of the equation but not the other. Its a nuanced problem with very real consequences. Looking at you Quebec and the curfew.

Florida didn't lock down either.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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Florida also has a population density around 4x that of Southern Ontario 397 per sq/km to 91 per sq/km.

The different factors are so numerous it's pointless to compare them. Canada benefits immensely from geography.

Our geography has more to do with our relative success than any policy the Government concocts. If these security measures actually worked, Countries in Europe would all be stellar examples of how to manage pandemics.

Countries that did do well did so because they implemented substantive border controls early in the Pandemic. This could also be seen in some cases at the sub-national level: the Atlantic Wall for instance.

There have been medical journals available for months now that show lockdowns themselves have little effect on death rate.
 

Halifax Tar

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Florida also has a population density around 4x that of Southern Ontario 397 per sq/km to 91 per sq/km.

The different factors are so numerous it's pointless to compare them. Canada benefits immensely from geography.

Our geography has more to do with our relative success than any policy the Government concocts. If these security measures actually worked, Countries in Europe would all be stellar examples of how to manage pandemics.

Countries that did do well did so because they implemented substantive border controls early in the Pandemic. This could also be seen in some cases at the sub-national level: the Atlantic Wall for instance.

There have been medical journals available for months now that show lockdowns themselves have little effect on death rate.

Balloon juice! The reasons NS and the Maritimes have done so well has nothing to do with our low population in a large land mass and everything to do with our ever caring and effective politicians and their splendid actions! ;)
 

HiTechComms

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The Emergencies Act is a much less blunt instrument than the War Measures Act was.
They should have enacted this and the quarantine act right off the bat. As the politicians proclaimed this was a "war" then they should have taken then appropriate measures as one would in fighting one, but they did not in order to avoid any bad publicity or accountability.
  1. It would have held some one accountable
  2. Standardized practice all across the board
 

Retired AF Guy

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As the Sunshine State is a tourist destination, perhaps some out-of-state / province Covid infections occurred there. While their deaths occurred in their home states and provinces? And perhaps Covid was spread to others when vacationers returned home?

Spring Break "super-spreaders" returning home, for example,

IIRC thats what happened in Quebec, Their Spring Break was earlier then the rest of the country and when they returned they brought the back virus with them.
 

kratz

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The Emergencies Act is a much less blunt instrument than the War Measures Act was.
Je me souviens,

I find it humorous the Quebec Premier is one of the loudest asking for the use of the Emergency Act.
The outrage from the use of the War Measures Act during the PLQ crisis and the resulting fallout was felt for decades afterwards.
 

CBH99

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Just looking at this graph here, for our weekly 'update'... during the summer when we didn't have a lockdown, and restrictions were still in place - our numbers were fairly manageable.

Ever since they imposed this lockdown, the numbers have done nothing but gone up. And this is from the government's own website at that.



Both sides of the argument above have valid points. Both sides have merit, and I think the solution is somewhere in the middle. (My own 2 cents, anyways)


We are creating economic damage beyond repair, and a mental health crisis which I personally believe far outweighs the risks of the virus. Especially if people are wearing masks, social distancing, and being responsible.

What happens when CRB runs out? I know quite a few people who weren't able to receive the most recent installment as Revenue Canada seems to add a few more hoops each time -- and those people are still unemployed due to no fault of their own, as our government imposed another lockdown right before Christmas. They will be unemployed AND not be able to receive assistance.

I know a lot of people who were excited to start working again, and got back to work as soon as things started to open up again. Only to find themselves laid off...again.



Wear masks. Get vaccinated when able. Be responsible. Protect the most vulnerable populations (aka our current policy of unlimited visitors to people in LTCs, as long as it is one at a time, is beyond stupid)

But locking everything down & actually taking legal action against people who dare leave their house is, in my own opinion, not solving anything.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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;)Balloon juice! The reasons NS and the Maritimes have done so well has nothing to do with our low population in a large land mass and everything to do with our ever caring and effective politicians and their splendid actions! ;)
Or the single points of entry and exit. I will admit though that NB and NS both did a good job controlling the borders initially, they also did a good job controlling intra-provincial movement when outbreaks did occur.

NB has had a number of outbreaks spillover from Quebec but the J Division RCMP, under direction from the Provincial EMO, did a phenomenal job cordoning regions and limiting unnecessary movement between zones within the Province. Setup VCPs along with roving patrols for the back roads and give local commanders discretion to turn people away and enforce the movement restrictions as necessary. Not travelling for official business? Well you get go go somewhere else.

Ontario and Quebec both did a bad job doing that which is why they are where they are at now. Looking at this from a military perspective, blanket lockdowns violate a bunch of principles:

Selection and maintenance of the aim, administration, concentration of force, economy of effort, etc. Any law or limit on civil liberties requires an enforcement mechanism. By targeting everything though, you aren't actually targeting anything 😉

Blanket lockdowns are the disease fighting equivalent of Carpet Bombing the Ho Chi Minh trail. You drop a bunch of ordnance but did you actually really achieve anything measurable? You also cause a bunch of spillover damage that won't be accounted for until long after this is over.

Instead of having Security Forces limiting unnecessary movement, you've now got them running around breaking up kids ice skating, busting in on peoples private residences, taking little targeted action and achieving exactly nothing.

Or there is the fact that the disease is probably cough airborne cough but nobody will say it because it will mean no workplace is actually safe and that would open up a bunch of refusal to work due to unsafe workplaces which is a can of worms we just can't have.
 

HiTechComms

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Or the single points of entry and exit. I will admit though that NB and NS both did a good job controlling the borders initially, they also did a good job controlling intra-provincial movement when outbreaks did occur.

NB has had a number of outbreaks spillover from Quebec but the J Division RCMP, under direction from the Provincial EMO, did a phenomenal job cordoning regions and limiting unnecessary movement between zones within the Province. Setup VCPs along with roving patrols for the back roads and give local commanders discretion to turn people away and enforce the movement restrictions as necessary. Not travelling for official business? Well you get go go somewhere else.

Ontario and Quebec both did a bad job doing that which is why they are where they are at now. Looking at this from a military perspective, blanket lockdowns violate a bunch of principles:

Selection and maintenance of the aim, administration, concentration of force, economy of effort, etc. Any law or limit on civil liberties requires an enforcement mechanism. By targeting everything though, you aren't actually targeting anything 😉

Blanket lockdowns are the disease fighting equivalent of Carpet Bombing the Ho Chi Minh trail. You drop a bunch of ordnance but did you actually really achieve anything measurable? You also cause a bunch of spillover damage that won't be accounted for until long after this is over.

Instead of having Security Forces limiting unnecessary movement, you've now got them running around breaking up kids ice skating, busting in on peoples private residences, taking little targeted action and achieving exactly nothing.

Or there is the fact that the disease is probably cough airborne cough but nobody will say it because it will mean no workplace is actually safe and that would open up a bunch of refusal to work due to unsafe workplaces which is a can of worms we just can't have.
How about just declare the Constitution null and void and suspend everyone's privileges. Lets just lock everyone down at the end of a gun.

God forbid if a war breaks out and Canada has to participate.. Oh the pearl clutching will be phenomenal.
 

Halifax Tar

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Blanket lockdowns are the disease fighting equivalent of Carpet Bombing the Ho Chi Minh trail. You drop a bunch of ordnance but did you actually really achieve anything measurable? You also cause a bunch of spillover damage that won't be accounted for until long after this is over.
That is such a great quote. I'm stealing that...
 

daftandbarmy

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That is such a great quote. I'm stealing that...

Don't encourage him or he might start sharing lifestyle advice too :)

Go Away GIF by NETFLIX
 
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