ArmyVern said:I agree with them. ICs?? Where the hell were the charges?? There are some things that are servere/serious enoguh to warrant both actions: Weapons mishandling should result in BOTH immediately.
MJP said:I don't agree with an immediate administrative measure for an ND unless it was gross negligence (like playing quick draw or similar asshattery) or there is a pattern of negligence(troop has 2-3 NDs over a short time period). NDs happen, we should deal with them quickly via summary trial or CM and lots of remedial training. There is no need to drag out the entire issue.
CountDC said:"All of the soldiers are members of 36 Canadian Brigade Group, the main army reserve unit based in Halifax."
Bet none of them are actual members of 36. PL Fus and 1 Fd must love this part, guess they need to practice the freedom of the city more often. Reporters at their best. How about LFAAHQ or did they finally move to Gagetown like was threatened so many years.
Nice to see Collette and Alex are still kicking around there.
MJP said:I don't agree with an immediate administrative measure for an ND unless it was gross negligence (like playing quick draw or similar asshattery) or there is a pattern of negligence(troop has 2-3 NDs over a short time period). NDs happen, we should deal with them quickly via summary trial or CM and lots of remedial training. There is no need to drag out the entire issue.
Sythen said:ND's are an extremely serious thing. They need the come down hard and fast on anyone who has one. If you handle your weapon properly, you will never have an ND. Everyone talks about professionalism, so why would we expect anything but proper handling of weapons?
I have never seen an ND that could not have been prevented. I saw one weapon which went off due to mechanical failure which was proven in the investigation and there were no charges filed. And one burst of C-6 due to hot barrel, but the Cpl maning the gun was able to break the belt before more than a couple rounds went off. Any time it is an actual ND, there should be no second chances or "do overs". If you have 2-3 in a short period of time, maybe soldiering isn't the right job for you.
MJP said:... I haven't seen a soldier place on admin action for a routine (albeit still serious) ND. What has happened in almost every case was the carrying out of swift punishment via the military justice system.
ArmyVern said:I know where you're coming from, but you need to peek at the recruits Electronics threads wrt NDs occuring in Clearance Bays. No more charges, just a 'counselling' and I still haven't got an answer as to whether or not that's an "official IC". For NDs out of clearance bays, fines <200 so they fall off and no admin action (hard to track that pattern if this is the case isn't it?) ... That's protectionism ...
ArmyVern said:For NDs out of clearance bays, fines <200 so they fall off and no admin action (hard to track that pattern if this is the case isn't it?) ... That's protectionism ...
PMedMoe said:2. It disturbs me to see the words "routine ND" together.
Haggis said:IF you are going to have a ND, the time and place to do so is in training, with blanks. THEN, the root cause of that failure can be addressed through remedial training and disciplinary action (if warranted).
During a deployment in the Balkans, some non Cbt Arms soldiers were so fearful of the consequences of having a ND that they would tape over the tops of thier magazines or remove the firing pin from thier weapons.
I witnessed this first-hand when a resupply packet arrived in my camp and I saw a driver and co-driver clearing their C7s at my clearing bay. Although they were going through the motions, neither actually looked at the breech areas (or even at the rifle for that matter) while performing the UNLOAD drill. Well, I "loses it!" and came aboard them like a fat kid on a Smartie only to have one of them tell me that "don't worry, sir, there's no firing pin in my bolt. I don't want to have a ND!" So, I loses it AGAIN only to find out later on just how common this practise was!
My point here is that these soldiers feared the consequences of mishandling their weapons more than they feared the threat in theatre. That's just wrong. And, I beleive, the product of a risk adverse Army that punishes rather than corrects shortcomings during training (yes, even pre-deployment training).
We expect a certain level of skill and competence from SOF, CBT A, NBP, Bosns etc. who handle weapons on a regular and routine basis. Weapons handling is an essential part of soldiering and we should also expect - and train for- a level of proficiency in weapons handiling which allows safe handling to be second nature under routine circumstances (like standing in front of a clearing bay).
There is, in my opiniopn, a belief in the mainstream media that rank begets competence and that belief extends to weapons handling. That's why stories like this will always be big news - because this Colonel (or BGen or CWO) is expected to be the pinnacle of competence in all the military arts, sciences and skills. Weapons handling included.
recceguy said:That problem goes, at least, back to the B-H deployments. We caught guys doing gate duty with the firing pins out of their rifles.
Snaketnk said:.
So in case that jumble of thoughts is as jumbled as I think, I'm just saying that I think that the 40% jump might be as a result of increased reporting of incidents.
MJP said:Aye I saw the same thing in 2000 SFOR from pretty much every trade.
Or the fact that the CF had a shooting war going on which meant a marked increase in the number of peopledoing weapons training.deploying with weapons and live ammo that they actually have to carry.
recceguy said:TFTFY
Haggis said:...
During a deployment in the Balkans, some non Cbt Arms soldiers were so fearful of the consequences of having a ND that they would tape over the tops of thier magazines or remove the firing pin from thier weapons.
I witnessed this first-hand when a resupply packet arrived in my camp and I saw a driver and co-driver clearing their C7s at my clearing bay. Although they were going through the motions, neither actually looked at the breech areas (or even at the rifle for that matter) while performing the UNLOAD drill. Well, I "loses it!" and came aboard them like a fat kid on a Smartie only to have one of them tell me that "don't worry, sir, there's no firing pin in my bolt. I don't want to have a ND!" So, I loses it AGAIN only to find out later on just how common this practise was!
...
Haggis said:...
We expect a certain level of skill and competence from SOF, CBT A, NBP, Bosns etc. who handle weapons on a regular and routine basis. Weapons handling is an essential part of soldiering and we should also expect - and train for- a level of proficiency in weapons handiling which allows safe handling to be second nature under routine circumstances (like standing in front of a clearing bay).
There is, in my opiniopn, a belief in the mainstream media that rank begets competence and that belief extends to weapons handling. That's why stories like this will always be big news - because this Colonel (or BGen or CWO) is expected to be the pinnacle of competence in all the military arts, sciences and skills. Weapons handling included.
ArmyVern said:Agreed with the mainstream's thoughts as to 'competence'. We had an ND our last week in KAF. An experienced (and obviously used to carrying weapon) officer. Clearing Bay. Charge. I also had to escort a fellow-CSM in for same (on range/C7) week one in KAF.
One of my best friends, Cpl Mike Abel was killed by an ND in Somalia and ,T., who had the ND was a small arms instructor; it happens. It should NEVER be taken lightly regardless of where one is in the training process or in their career.
Jim Seggie said:I agree fully. Good post Vern.