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All Things Air Defence/AA (merged)

daftandbarmy

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Found this interesting article from last summer on the RAND site. Seems like in some cases some existing AAD systems are not as effective as advertised.

https://www.rand.org/blog/2020/07/drone-era-warfare-shows-the-operational-limits-of-air.html

Certainly doesn't mean we should not make the urgent investment in badly need AAD systems, but definitely something to keep in mind when looking at the overall "system of systems" when balancing our offensive and defensive capabilities.

The best anti-air systems are like Ogres: they have layers :)

shrek GIF
 

FJAG

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The best anti-air systems are like Ogres: they have layers :)

shrek GIF
Besides the complete lack of any layers in Canada, the emergence and prevalence of guided munitions as a system to take out high value targets has really opened up the fact that there is a lack of a layer to deal with the small, inexpensive and swarming things that now fill the sky. As far back as Gulf War 1 most of our doctrine called for a an opening phase where we took out air defence systems so that our superior air power had full play. While once that might have been the role of aviation, special forces, specialized air delivered munitions and other long range deep strikes, we haven't changed our strategy much while other, smaller countries with smaller budgets, have become inventive.

My understanding is that GBAD which at best was set for a 2026 delivery has been pushed back substantially from that date.

I've said it before, we should at least lease some Avengers from the US so that we can revive our GBAD skills, knowledge and technical C&C base with these as training aids until the new systems come on line. By 2030 or whatever, there won't be an AD gunner left in the CAF.

Quite frankly looking backward at how we have squandered time and resources at preparing for the wrong type of conflict shedding capabilities and corporate knowledge left and right ever since we left our role in Europe, I see very little hope for the future. It's a good thing Canada has a very large moat around it.

🤔
 

daftandbarmy

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Besides the complete lack of any layers in Canada, the emergence and prevalence of guided munitions as a system to take out high value targets has really opened up the fact that there is a lack of a layer to deal with the small, inexpensive and swarming things that now fill the sky. As far back as Gulf War 1 most of our doctrine called for a an opening phase where we took out air defence systems so that our superior air power had full play. While once that might have been the role of aviation, special forces, specialized air delivered munitions and other long range deep strikes, we haven't changed our strategy much while other, smaller countries with smaller budgets, have become inventive.

My understanding is that GBAD which at best was set for a 2026 delivery has been pushed back substantially from that date.

I've said it before, we should at least lease some Avengers from the US so that we can revive our GBAD skills, knowledge and technical C&C base with these as training aids until the new systems come on line. By 2030 or whatever, there won't be an AD gunner left in the CAF.

Quite frankly looking backward at how we have squandered time and resources at preparing for the wrong type of conflict shedding capabilities and corporate knowledge left and right ever since we left our role in Europe, I see very little hope for the future. It's a good thing Canada has a very large moat around it.

🤔

Speaking of the 'deep strike' thing, MLRS delivered drones sound like a pretty good idea for stripping away those enfor GBAD assets:


"If Cluster Swarm drones have EFP warheads similar to existing weapons, then each MLRS missile would release about ten drones. Each M270 MLRS vehicle fires twelve missiles in a salvo, for a hundred and twenty drones. So a battery of nine launch vehicles would deliver a thousand killer drones over the target area, enough in theory to stop an entire armored division in its tracks."

 

Colin Parkinson

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Until the Armoured division AD battery fires fires off similar munitions with 2,000 Drone hunter drones. Eventually it will be drones hunting each other and when they are done, we continue our war.
 

Weinie

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Speaking of the 'deep strike' thing, MLRS delivered drones sound like a pretty good idea for stripping away those enfor GBAD assets:


"If Cluster Swarm drones have EFP warheads similar to existing weapons, then each MLRS missile would release about ten drones. Each M270 MLRS vehicle fires twelve missiles in a salvo, for a hundred and twenty drones. So a battery of nine launch vehicles would deliver a thousand killer drones over the target area, enough in theory to stop an entire armored division in its tracks."

So how do you stop a drone swarm? With an anti-drone swarm. Put several loitering mother ships with killer seekers around your armour and then your GBAD evolves into another capability. (Loitering Anti-Drone Defence). The idea that we can counter this on the ground is ludicrous.
 

daftandbarmy

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So how do you stop a drone swarm? With an anti-drone swarm. Put several loitering mother ships with killer seekers around your armour and then your GBAD evolves into another capability. (Loitering Anti-Drone Defence). The idea that we can counter this on the ground is ludicrous.

Well, there is the time honoured tradition in some countries of using 'human shields', of course :)
 

FJAG

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Speaking of the 'deep strike' thing, MLRS delivered drones sound like a pretty good idea for stripping away those enfor GBAD assets:


"If Cluster Swarm drones have EFP warheads similar to existing weapons, then each MLRS missile would release about ten drones. Each M270 MLRS vehicle fires twelve missiles in a salvo, for a hundred and twenty drones. So a battery of nine launch vehicles would deliver a thousand killer drones over the target area, enough in theory to stop an entire armored division in its tracks."

An interesting concept and if not viable at the moment, it will be in time.

As to: Is it a WMD? The answer is no, buttercup, but depending on how it's target resolving AI works, it may become a weapon with unacceptable collateral damage consequences.

🍻
 

MilEME09

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Israel has upgraded the iron dome to now intercept drones as well. Interesting
 

CBH99

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Extremely useful system in almost any theatre.

Iron Dome has traditionally been used to engage incoming missiles, moving faster and (I imagine) higher than drones. I would have thought that Iron Dome could have already hit drones without the upgrade?
 

Colin Parkinson

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Maybe optimized for lower angles and slower speeds? Also could mean a wider range of munitions to take out cheaper drones at less cost.
 

Kirkhill

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Antonov_AN-2_(cropped).jpg

According to Shekhar Gupta Azerbaijan converted its obsolete and "useless" fleet of Antonov 2s into single use drones with massive Radar Cross Sections and flew them towards the Armenian lines. The Armenians interpreted the massive radar incursion as a clear threat and activated their tactical defences. Loitering Harop anti-radiation munitions took out the active air defence net.

From 11:30


F16 Drones from the Boneyard.


And the potential for drones launching drones.

 

Kirkhill

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After watching the videos of the F18s deploying a swarm from 5 canisters


and watching a swarm manoeuver through trees (you can skip the planning and directly to the field observation at the halfway mark if you like)


I became aware that the Australian company (DefendTex) that is supplying the Brits with these


Also holds the patent on this




As Brihard and FJAG (I apologize if I have got the accreditation wrong) seem to be arguing, the best counter to a swarm is another swarm (or Big Wing).

A group of MetalStorm projectors launching something akin to those 40mm drones might be the only reasonable counter to those F18 deployed swarms

Every day is a miniature September 1940 with mini Spitfires and Messerchmidts fighting for dominance while mini Hurricanes fight to shoot down mini Junkers, Heinkels and Dorniers.
 

FJAG

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Well, it looks like some folks can get a capability into operational use in less than a decade: First short-range air defense systems deploy to Europe By: Jen Judson   4 days ago
WDLBJZGSCZGY7KISUGTGSEWTK4.jpg

The 5th Battalion, 4th Air Defense Artillery Regiment (5-4 ADA), 10th Army Air and Missile Defense Command, is the first unit in the Army to receive the Mobile Short Range Air Defense (M-SHORAD) system. (Photo by Capt. Jordan Allen/U.S. Army)​


WASHINGTON — The first unit in Europe has received the Maneuver Short-Range Air Defense (M-SHORAD) systems, according to an April 23 statement from Army Futures Command.
The 5th Battalion, 4th Air Defense Artillery Regiment, a subordinate unit under the 10th Army Air-and-Missile Defense Command, in Ansbach, Germany, is the first to receive the vehicles and will continue to test the M-SHORAD system.
The M-SHORAD is a Stryker A1 combat vehicle-based system that includes a mission equipment package designed by Leonard DRS. That mission equipment package includes Raytheon’s Stinger vehicle missile launcher. General Dynamics Land Systems is the lead integrator and received a $1.2 billion contract to build and deliver the system in October 2020.
The first battalion of 32 vehicles will be fielded in September 2021 using prototypes already built to fill it out.
The system was rapidly developed in record time. It took just 19 months from the time the service generated the requirement to the first delivery of a platform for testing, answering an urgent call in 2016 from U.S. Army Europe to fill the short-range air defense capability gap.

Then-U.S. Army Europe commander, Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges, told Defense News in an interview flying above Poland during the country’s Anakonda military exercise, that his biggest worry was countering unmanned aerial vehicles and the Army needed to quickly get capability that could tackle the problem, particularly swarms.
The M-SHORAD capability is designed to defend against unmanned systems as well as rotary- and fixed-wing threats.
The service received the requirement to build the system in February 2018.

After a shoot-off in the desert of White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico, and subsequent evaluations of vendors, the Army selected a Stryker combat vehicle as the host system with the Leonardo DRS mission equipment package.
The Army will field 144 systems to four battalions beginning this year, followed by an enduring capability for additional battalions.

Future variants of the system will include other kinetic interceptors and a directed energy capability that will not only defend against UAS and manned aircraft but also rockets, artillery and mortars.
The Army has awarded a contract each to Northrop Grumman and Raytheon to build a 50-kilowatt-class laser weapon for Stryker combat vehicles for the SHORAD mission. One of the laser weapon systems developed could be integrated onto a platoon of four Stryker vehicles in fiscal 2022. But the Army is leaving competition open to any vendors that did not receive an OTA contract to compete using their own internal research and development dollars

Well done, Yanks!

:salute:
 

daftandbarmy

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As Brihard and FJAG (I apologize if I have got the accreditation wrong) seem to be arguing, the best counter to a swarm is another swarm (or Big Wing).

A group of MetalStorm projectors launching something akin to those 40mm drones might be the only reasonable counter to those F18 deployed swarms

Every day is a miniature September 1940 with mini Spitfires and Messerchmidts fighting for dominance while mini Hurricanes fight to shoot down mini Junkers, Heinkels and Dorniers.

It seems we could learn alot from ISIS on how to do this:


From 2018...


Russia Offers New Details About Syrian Mass Drone Attack, Now Implies Ukrainian Connection​


The Russian military’s top officer in charge of drone development has offered new details about apparent first of their kind mass drone attacks on its forces in Syria in an official briefing at the country’s Ministry of Defense. The presentation reiterated the Kremlin’s assertion that terrorists or rebels could not have conducted the operation without significant outside support, now implying a possible Ukrainian connection, but significant questions remain unanswered.

Speaking from the Russian Ministry of Defense’s briefing room, amid examples of the drones and their munitions that the country recovered after the attacks, Major General Alexander Novikov, head of the Russian General Staff's Office for Unmanned Aerial Vehicle Development, gave the most detailed and complete official description of the incident to date. He said that unspecified terrorists utilized a total of 13 improvised drones, each carrying 10 bomblets, sending 10 to Russia's Khmeimim air base in Latakia governorate and the other three to its naval base in Tartus on the Mediterranean Sea. The munitions each had an explosive charge weighing nearly one pound, as well as strings of metal ball bearings or BBs glued together as pre-formed shrapnel, which would have made them most effective against individuals out in the open.

 

CBH99

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Well, it looks like some folks can get a capability into operational use in less than a decade: First short-range air defense systems deploy to Europe By: Jen Judson   4 days ago


Well done, Yanks!

:salute:
While they have their share of failed or derailed projects like the rest of us - I’m always impressed at how quickly they can field a new capability when it becomes necessary.

30mm turret on Stryker deployed to Europe? Done. Stryker based AD variant? Now done.

Good on them with this project 😊👍🏻
 

FJAG

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It's an interesting cycle they work with - kind of like us. The Avenger system was put together in 10 months in 1984. The US Army tested it for a bit and put in contracts for initial delivery of 325 systems for 1987 in time to deploy operational for Gulf War 1. Orders went up for another 679 systems for a total of 26 battalions but with the "peace dividend" and Iraq/Afghanistan thing, these were reduced to two active and seven National Guard. Then again, post Afghanistan and the Russians getting pushy in the Ukraine, the US started hauling them out of storage, reactivating active AD battalions, sent them to Europe and started a program for a new and advanced system.

I'm a great fan of the Avenger. IMHO it's a perfect interim system for Canada while we flounder around with our own SHORAD project. It's simple to operate and maintain and well within a reserve unit's capability to operate. It would make an absolutely perfect training aid to get our organization and doctrine sorted out and my guess is we could get surplus ones from the US on loan with our costs being primarily for training and operational missiles.

Like you, I'd like to see the M-SHORAD as an eventual operational system. It's there, it can be put on a Cdn LAV and it could be assembled in Canada. What would be simpler.

🍻
 

Colin Parkinson

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And add a PRES UAV Troop as well using Civilian Drones at first which allows both Troops to practice against each other. The UAV Troop just needs 1-2 Milcot pickup trucks or even a Milcot Jeep, 3-4 members per detachment, a TSM and Troop officer.

The nice thing about the Avenger system is that they can practice with the .50cals when there is a shortage of practice missiles. These two Troops would be popular with the younger soldiers, who would be technically adept at keeping things working and figuring out tactics and even practice targets. UAV troops could have yearly competitions to build and flying homemade drones to complete certain tasks which would attract some good talent.
 

daftandbarmy

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It's an interesting cycle they work with - kind of like us. The Avenger system was put together in 10 months in 1984. The US Army tested it for a bit and put in contracts for initial delivery of 325 systems for 1987 in time to deploy operational for Gulf War 1. Orders went up for another 679 systems for a total of 26 battalions but with the "peace dividend" and Iraq/Afghanistan thing, these were reduced to two active and seven National Guard. Then again, post Afghanistan and the Russians getting pushy in the Ukraine, the US started hauling them out of storage, reactivating active AD battalions, sent them to Europe and started a program for a new and advanced system.

I'm a great fan of the Avenger. IMHO it's a perfect interim system for Canada while we flounder around with our own SHORAD project. It's simple to operate and maintain and well within a reserve unit's capability to operate. It would make an absolutely perfect training aid to get our organization and doctrine sorted out and my guess is we could get surplus ones from the US on loan with our costs being primarily for training and operational missiles.

Like you, I'd like to see the M-SHORAD as an eventual operational system. It's there, it can be put on a Cdn LAV and it could be assembled in Canada. What would be simpler.

🍻
Some issues we'd need to work out:

1. Simulators (we suck at that)

2. EME Support (we suck at that too)

3. Ammo and training areas (no way are we set up for LLAD requirements AFAIK)

4. Courses (e.g., we can't even get spaces on Recce courses when the unit is Op Tasked for Recce)
 

suffolkowner

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Could have put this in the Reserve thread as too


and from the article


With regard to M-SHORAD would it be advantageous to stick with the 25mm due to commonality. Obviously you lose in firepower and range but our LAV's are already outfitted with them, while the US looks to be adding and settling on the mk44 Bushmaster II to the previously berefit Strykers as the new standard.

Programmable munitions look like they are available

 
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