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A Deeply Fractured US

Navy_Pete

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Presidents have to meet with disreputable foreign figures from time to time. Making nice with Syria is hardly in the same league as the people who make nice with countries like Russia and China.
Is this the same Syria that used chemical weapons, barrel bombs and other war crimes on it's own citizens?

Maybe they are more of an internal issue vice globally causing things, but they are still pieces of shit.
 

Brad Sallows

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At present there’s no indication of criminal intent or obstruction in the case of Pence or Biden
Not all statutes require criminal intent. It's the "gross negligence" provision that has some of the suits worried.
 
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Brad Sallows

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Is this the same Syria that used chemical weapons, barrel bombs and other war crimes on it's own citizens?

Maybe they are more of an internal issue vice globally causing things, but they are still pieces of shit.
Yes, they're assholes. But so are people who try to play for political points by being selective about which assholes it's OK to be engaged with.
 

Navy_Pete

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Yes, they're assholes. But so are people who try to play for political points by being selective about which assholes it's OK to be engaged with.
Meanwhile the US has something like a 70 year history of refusing to deal with Cuba, who knows how many assasination attempts, and a generally incredibly inconsistent record at dealing with brutal dictatorships.

So (Russia backed) Syria is okay, brutal dictatorship N. Korea (with China backing) is fine, Russia and China somehow is the red line? Also, Saudi Arabia is an ally, but don't mention where the 9/11 attackers came from, or the murdered guy that got chopped up to fit in suitcases.

I think it's impossible to be morally clean internationally unless you cut yourself off from 3/4 of the planet (and all their resources and trade goods), but pretty inconsistent to have a few countries as the Red Menace boogie men and then just pretend another country doing equally horrific things is somehow one of the good guys.

I think good comms are almost more important with the pieces of crap, especially the nuclear capable ones, but pretty disingenous to pretend Assad isn't a murdering, genocidal maniac dictator, or Kim Jong Ill isn't also a huge piece of shit who keeps doing things that are basically acts of war against S. Korea and is playing chicken that they won't call him on it (torpedoing Navy ships, cyber attacks on teh banking system etc).
 

Fishbone Jones

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What are you looking for? Us to start chanting “hang Mike Pence”?

At present there’s no indication of criminal intent or obstruction in the case of Pence or Biden (that we here know of). Some of us have already said that the Biden document discoveries need to be investigated, and that it’s appropriate that there’s a special counsel named for that. Now that the Pence story is out, I’ll say the same for him. If it’s Obama next week, same deal There’s no argument you can make that anyone here is being inconsistent in how we’re viewing the cases.

Find the facts, apply the law. If one case involves resistance to the recovery of classified government property, and allegations of criminal obstruction necessitating a search warrant, and the other does not, then it’s reasonable to suspect that these different facts may lead to different legal outcomes. We shall see in the fullness of time.
The fact is Biden (or Pence) as VP, had no business with the docs and certainly not for almost 6 years, in one case. Don't get lost in the whys and wherefores. Biden illegally held classified documents, didn't store them properly and left them where anyone in the premise could find, read and possibly use them against the US. There's the facts, now apply the law.

Pretty cut and dried and zero excuse for it if you ask me. Like I said earlier, nobody sends $2000/hour lawyers, to clean out closets, without knowing that there's something there that you'll need those lawyers to answer for.
 

Fishbone Jones

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Where is all the collective outrage on this forum about how bad this is? I wonder if we will get the same amount offence we did speculating how Trump was the enemy of the state.
Trump will never get a fair shake here. People will defend biden, the biggest liar and worst POTUS in the history of the US. The POTUS that has caused the worst inflation, the most outrageous spending and ignorer of the Constitution. However, it's Trump that haunts their dreams, keeps that political adrenaline going and lives rent free in their heads. To them he is le démon sans âme qui survit en aspirant la force vitale des enfants.
 

QV

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Trump will never get a fair shake here. People will defend biden, the biggest liar and worst POTUS in the history of the US. The POTUS that has caused the worst inflation, the most outrageous spending and ignorer of the Constitution. However, it's Trump that haunts their dreams, keeps that political adrenaline going and lives rent free in their heads. To them he is le démon sans âme qui survit en aspirant la force vitale des enfants.
Very true. It is amazing to watch actually.
 

brihard

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The fact is Biden (or Pence) as VP, had no business with the docs and certainly not for almost 6 years, in one case. Don't get lost in the whys and wherefores. Biden illegally held classified documents, didn't store them properly and left them where anyone in the premise could find, read and possibly use them against the US. There's the facts, now apply the law.

Pretty cut and dried and zero excuse for it if you ask me. Like I said earlier, nobody sends $2000/hour lawyers, to clean out closets, without knowing that there's something there that you'll need those lawyers to answer for.
Biden, Pence, and Trump are/were all among the top executives of the United States. They are neither printing, nor storing much if any of their own material, classified or otherwise- their time is far too valuable, and they have staffs for that. The senior political classes also seem to have a much more relaxed attitude about the use and handling of such material than the security and intelligence community. Likewise, it’s very doubtful they’re directly involved in packing and moving their stuff at the end of a term- likewise; staffs. Any given current or former POTUS or VP likely has little idea what’s in any given moving box. While improper storage of classified documents is in all likelihood ‘an offence’, determining who committed an offence requires determining who had the requisite mens rea; i.e., who knew that something illegal was happening?

What you dismiss as ‘whys and wherefores’ are actually the key granular details necessary for establishing criminal liability in a given case.

In these classified document cases, it’s necessary not just to prove that there were acts of storage or mishandling that meet a criminal threshold, but also that a given suspect had knowledge of it.

This is why there’s a significant different in potential legal guilty between “holy crap, we found something, get a lawyer here, and get the archives on the phone RTFN so we can sort this out” - which appears to be the case with Pence and Biden - and “no, frig off, I gave you everything, it’s mine anyway, and I don’t have anything else, and even if I did it would still be mine, and what do you mean you got video footage and now you’re back with a search warrant and found three hundred more after my lawyer signed saying you had everything?”. Even at that, we don’t yet know if Trump faces legal liability. It’s entirely possibly he was poorly served by underlings, and that culpability rests with one or more of his advisors and lawyers. He may have been as unaware of what was in his personal desk drawer as he was of what was in his basement. I’m completely open to that possibility too. He didn’t exactly surround himself with rock stars.

If you’re unable or unwilling to see the difference in those two fact sets, you’re blinding by partisanship… But frankly I know that to be the case anyway on this one, and you already said you wouldn’t respect the legitimacy of the criminal investigation into this regardless. So it’s a moot point.

If investigation shows that Biden had knowledge of retained and concealed classified documents, or obstructed an investigation, then have at ‘er and charge him. Same if it was on his underlings. Same with Pence and his. Or Obama if it’s him next week. But so far only one investigation has seen what appears to be blatant obstruction, concealing of evidence, and defiance of subpoena. Some people made choices, and I believe they will prove to have been poor ones. Other people, finding themselves potentially in a similar position, have made very, very different choices- probably much better ones, from a legal standpoint.
 
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QV

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What is hilarious is how Brihard defends one of the USA's longest serving grifter politicians (Biden) as some stalwart of ethical behavior while calling for the head of 45. The other funny part is that he actually believes these investigations are going to be pure and untainted in anyway and show us the truth, like Crossfire Hurricane was :ROFLMAO:.

No body believes this shit anymore.
 

Lumber

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What is hilarious is how Brihard defends one of the USA's longest serving grifter politicians (Biden) as some stalwart of ethical behavior while calling for the head of 45. The other funny part is that he actually believes these investigations are going to be pure and untainted in anyway and show us the truth, like Crossfire Hurricane was :ROFLMAO:.

No body believes this shit anymore.
1. Brihard didn't call for the head of 45, he called for a thorough and fair investigation of equal magnitude into all potential crimes.
2. Even if biden is "one of the longest serving grifter" politicians, Trump is by far one of the largest grifters period.
 

brihard

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What is hilarious is how Brihard defends one of the USA's longest serving grifter politicians (Biden) as some stalwart of ethical behavior while calling for the head of 45.

I’ve heard writing fiction can be a fun hobby, though I’m not sure how you see ‘if Biden committed crimes, charge him’ as defending him. So your story’s not starting on a particularly plausible premise.

By all means feel free to offer your own insights on these cases from your own understanding of criminal law and the legal process. So far all you’ve done on this is take snippy shots from the sidelines.
 

RangerRay

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What is hilarious is how Brihard defends one of the USA's longest serving grifter politicians (Biden) as some stalwart of ethical behavior while calling for the head of 45. The other funny part is that he actually believes these investigations are going to be pure and untainted in anyway and show us the truth, like Crossfire Hurricane was :ROFLMAO:.

No body believes this shit anymore.
Did you even read what he said?

Get a grip.
 

QV

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Right, six pages pontificating Trump’s alleged crimes vs six words on Biden. :LOL:
 

brihard

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Right, six pages pontificating Trump’s alleged crimes vs six words on Biden. :LOL:
I haven’t accused Trump of crimes, so you’re making that up too. I’ve been crystal clear about the various possibilities, including the potential culpability of lackeys only.

I work with what there is to work with. If more comes out about Biden and Pence, I may have more to say about Biden and Pence. So far they’re completely and proactively playing ball with NARA, which will limit the amount of written material we get to see. The unsealed search warrant affidavit and subsequent garbage lawyering in the Mar-a-Lago investigation, on the other hand, has given us lots to work with.

You’re welcome to peruse all the same affidavits and court decisions and give us your own opposing analysis. I bet you won’t, though.
 

KevinB

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Trump will never get a fair shake here. People will defend biden, the biggest liar and worst POTUS in the history of the US.
Uhm you skimmed over 44, and frankly 42 gave him a run for his money.


The POTUS that has caused the worst inflation, the most outrageous spending and ignorer of the Constitution.
Again see my comments on 44.
When Obama was POTUS so many rules where make to allow for Military actions that where ‘not military’ to get around that inconvenience of our constitution it’s sickening, and 45 and 46 did nothing to curb them.
However, it's Trump that haunts their dreams, keeps that political adrenaline going and lives rent free in their heads. To them he is le démon sans âme qui survit en aspirant la force vitale des enfants.
You clearly don’t get 40+ emails from Team Trump daily. You can’t unsubscribe as they register you for more garbage when unsubscribing.
 

Fishbone Jones

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Biden, Pence, and Trump are/were all among the top executives of the United States. They are neither printing, nor storing much if any of their own material, classified or otherwise- their time is far too valuable, and they have staffs for that. The senior political classes also seem to have a much more relaxed attitude about the use and handling of such material than the security and intelligence community. Likewise, it’s very doubtful they’re directly involved in packing and moving their stuff at the end of a term- likewise; staffs. Any given current or former POTUS or VP likely has little idea what’s in any given moving box. While improper storage of classified documents is in all likelihood ‘an offence’, determining who committed an offence requires determining who had the requisite mens rea; i.e., who knew that something illegal was happening?

What you dismiss as ‘whys and wherefores’ are actually the key granular details necessary for establishing criminal liability in a given case.

In these classified document cases, it’s necessary not just to prove that there were acts of storage or mishandling that meet a criminal threshold, but also that a given suspect had knowledge of it.
This is why there’s a significant different in potential legal guilty between “holy crap, we found something, get a lawyer here, and get the archives on the phone RTFN so we can sort this out” - which appears to be the case with Pence and Biden - and “no, frig off, I gave you everything, it’s mine anyway, and I don’t have anything else, and even if I did it would still be mine, and what do you mean you got video footage and now you’re back with a search warrant and found three hundred more after my lawyer signed saying you had everything?”. Even at that, we don’t yet know if Trump faces legal liability. It’s entirely possibly he was poorly served by underlings, and that culpability rests with one or more of his advisors and lawyers. He may have been as unaware of what was in his personal desk drawer as he was of what was in his basement. I’m completely open to that possibility too. He didn’t exactly surround himself with rock stars.

If you’re unable or unwilling to see the difference in those two fact sets, you’re blinding by partisanship… But frankly I know that to be the case anyway on this one, and you already said you wouldn’t respect the legitimacy of the criminal investigation into this regardless. So it’s a moot point.

If investigation shows that Biden had knowledge of retained and concealed classified documents, or obstructed an investigation, then have at ‘er and charge him. Same if it was on his underlings. Same with Pence and his. Or Obama if it’s him next week. But so far only one investigation has seen what appears to be blatant obstruction, concealing of evidence, and defiance of subpoena. Some people made choices, and I believe they will prove to have been poor ones. Other people, finding themselves potentially in a similar position, have made very, very different choices- probably much better ones, from a legal standpoint.
Be careful there Pot. Almost every post here and elsewhere, from you, just oozes and drips with your own blatant anti Trump bias. You go out of your way to blame and try to make him appear as the biggest boogeyman that ever hit politics. So, when you close out one of your posts, by culminating everything you said in a tirade about him, it's hard to take you seriously also. If he doesn't get charged, we'll be ready for your bellyaching about how he skipped justice. So, I won't try mind read you if you promise to not do the same with me anymore. Attack my ideas and quit trying to project what I think to the forum. They're adults, they don't need you to explain what you think goes on up there.
 

brihard

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Be careful there Pot. Almost every post here and elsewhere, from you, just oozes and drips with your own blatant anti Trump bias. You go out of your way to blame and try to make him appear as the biggest boogeyman that ever hit politics. So, when you close out one of your posts, by culminating everything you said in a tirade about him, it's hard to take you seriously also. If he doesn't get charged, we'll be ready for your bellyaching about how he skipped justice. So, I won't try mind read you if you promise to not do the same with me anymore. Attack my ideas and quit trying to project what I think to the forum. They're adults, they don't need you to explain what you think goes on up there.

On the contrary, if a properly conducted investigation finds him not criminally liable, I’ll shrug and accept that. That’s just how I go with this stuff. And I’m not sure where you’re getting this ‘biggest boogeyman that ever hit politics’ silliness from, because I rarely talk about his politics, and you won’t be able to dig through this thread or others and show otherwise. I don’t find his politics interesting enough to commit much time to. I’m more a facts and criminal law guy- that, I DO find interesting.

I don’t need to read your mind, you’ve made your stance on all this very clear, including what you think of any criminal investigation into this matter. That was back on August 26th for those who care to review the thread.

I also don’t worry about whether you, personally, take me seriously or not. I put my views out there and defend my reasoning, and you and everyone else can make up their mind. I’ll extend to you the same invite I offered QV- dig through the material yourself, and if you don’t like my take on how the law seems to apply, offer your own analysis and we’ll discuss it.
 

QV

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Uhm you skimmed over 44, and frankly 42 gave him a run for his money.



Again see my comments on 44.
When Obama was POTUS so many rules where make to allow for Military actions that where ‘not military’ to get around that inconvenience of our constitution it’s sickening, and 45 and 46 did nothing to curb them.

You clearly don’t get 40+ emails from Team Trump daily. You can’t unsubscribe as they register you for more garbage when unsubscribing.
So in descending order best to worst, which president of the last four did the best for America from your standpoint?
 
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