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15 Jul 2016: Attempted Coup in Turkey + Aftermath

abduly85

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jollyjacktar said:
It certainly had already ceased in my eyes once this Islamist took office a couple of years back.  Not interested in any country that is being run by one of them.

From the above, it's clear that some of us have been living under a rock for a while!
The AKP (Erdogan's Party) has been in power, democratically, since 2002!
 
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jollyjacktar

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abduly85 said:
From the above, it's clear that some of us have been living under a rock for a while!
The AKP (Erdogan's Party) has been in power, democratically, since 2002!

That being said, it wasn't until after he took the reins of power that it really started to raise it's ugly head as it has.  Now, he's got the throttle, "balls to the wall" and has applied full military power settings for speed.
 

abduly85

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jollyjacktar said:
Too bad they didn't pull the trigger, if true.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3694546/At-height-Turkish-coup-bid-rebel-jets-Erdogans-plane-sights.html

Don't sweat it, they've pulled the trigger here annihilating many of the bystanders around Presidential Palace in Ankara:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MatY0R4XV8c

I just can't fathom how we, as Canadians in this forum, are not condemning this military coup? Some of us are even wishing it succeeded!
Do we really want another failed state like in Egypt with Sisi or in Iraq? I'm not a fan of Erdogan nor his policies, but at the end of day Turkish people have elected him/his party and in a democracy that's how it works (In Turkey it may be a flawed democracy, but a democracy still).
In the words of a wise-man: "If you thought Turkey was undemocratic yesterday wait till tomorrow [under military rule]"
 

Baloo

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Interesting article covering the attempted coup, from War on the Rocks.

http://warontherocks.com/2016/07/the-coup-operation-and-turkeys-fractured-military/

Inside a Failed Coup and Turkey’s Fragmented Military
Aaron Stein
July 20, 2016

The recent coup attempt in Turkey revealed profound political cleavages in the Turkish armed forces. The coup pitted a minority — but nevertheless significant — faction of the Turkish military against the majority of the country’s armed forces, which remained loyal to their commander in chief, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

The coup nearly succeeded in achieving what, in retrospect, appears to have been its primary objective: the killing or capture of Erdogan, Prime Minister Binali Yildirim, and Hakan Fidan, the chief of the country’s intelligence agency, MIT. The plotters, using a number of well-placed insiders, did manage to take the chief of the general staff, Hulusi Akar, hostage. The clashes resulted in 240 deaths. Turkish government officials allege that the plot was hatched by followers of Fetullah Gulen, a self-exiled Turkish cleric, currently living in Pennsylvania.

The following account remains incomplete and relies on a Whatsapp conversation between some of the coup plotters, open source data, compiled by blogs like The Aviationist, as well as discussions I have had with Turkey based journalists and colleagues, all whom prefer to remain anonymous. I relied on pro-government sources, including state-owned and government aligned media outlets, but sought to compensate for their biases in my analysis. The complete story has yet to be told and all of the details have yet to be released publicly.

The story of the coup suggests a relatively large plot that drew support from numerous parts of the Turkish Armed Forces, spanning various commands around Turkey. The number of senior officers involved, including the commander of Incirlik air force base where U.S. aircraft are now based for the fight against the Islamic State, suggest that the Turkish military is divided. The narrative following the coup is that this was a small, ill-conceived group of plotters who failed to overthrow the elected government, but this narrative is at odds with information coming out about the extent of the plot. This was a larger and far more credible attempt than has thus far been reported.

...

BLUF. From the article, the indication is that a hasty enacting of the plot, brought on by detection by Turkish intelligence, coupled with a failure to seize or kill Erdogan, allowed the situation to deteriorate so quickly and ultimately derailed events.

Shared with the usual caveats.


 
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jollyjacktar

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abduly85 said:
Don't sweat it, they've pulled the trigger here annihilating many of the bystanders around Presidential Palace in Ankara:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MatY0R4XV8c

I just can't fathom how we, as Canadians in this forum, are not condemning this military coup? Some of us are even wishing it succeeded!
Do we really want another failed state like in Egypt with Sisi or in Iraq? I'm not a fan of Erdogan nor his policies, but at the end of day Turkish people have elected him/his party and in a democracy that's how it works (In Turkey it may be a flawed democracy, but a democracy still).
In the words of a wise-man: "If you thought Turkey was undemocratic yesterday wait till tomorrow [under military rule]"

If you think I approve the shooting of civilians, you can get stuffed. 

I won't cheer for him and would wish for his downfall as I don't like or trust his type. Turkey has done just fine in the past following Ataturk's directives for success.  Anyone who would return it to that will get my approval.  Lastly,  as others have pointed out here, Erdogon is anything but democratic.  You just wait to see the rule of law get thrown out the window now. He's a dictator.  You want to cheer for him, fill your boots,  I won't be joining you.
 

a_majoor

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Turks reacting to the purge and establishment of a dictatorship by posting workarounds to social media "blackouts"

https://mic.com/articles/85987/turkish-protesters-are-spray-painting-8-8-8-8-and-8-8-4-4-on-walls-here-s-what-it-means#.BQqTsyJE5

Turkish Protesters Are Spray Painting "8.8.8.8" and "8.8.4.4." On Walls — Here's What It Means
By Matt Essert March 22, 2014

Turkish Protesters Are Spray Painting "8.8.8.8" and "8.8.4.4." On Walls — Here's What It Means Image Credit: Twitter
As hard as the Turkish government might try, shutting down Twitter isn't as easy as it seems. At 11:30 p.m. Thursday the Turkish government officially blocked the country's 33 million Internet users from Twitter, but clever, tech-savvy Turks are sharing a simple and effective method to help fellow citizens bypass the ban — and they're sharing it everywhere.

Just hours after Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan threatened to "root out" Twitter, graffiti has been popping up around Istanbul with two IP addresses anyone can use to circumvent the government's ban. The two numbers — 8.8.8.8. and 8.8.4.4. — refer to Google's Public DNS, which can be easily utilized to maintain access to Twitter.

And it's working. Despite a short blackout, many Turks are back on Twitter, and there's nothing the government can really do to stop them.

" ... it seems that masses of ordinary citizens are learning how to use this technology," wrote Serhatcan Yurdam, a blogger who lives in Istanbul. "Everybody is teaching each other how to change their DNS, how to use VPNs ... and clearly they're catching on quickly, since so many people are still tweeting!"

Step-by-step instructions like this are being widely shared by Turkish Internet users.

Erdogan's motivation was to "eradicate" social media, which he considers "the worst menace to society." While he might have altruistic claims, it's likely his real motivation was to squash any hints of a rebellion as well as to halt the circulation of a leaked voice recording of Erdogan and his son discussing how to hide $1 billion dollars of cash in safe houses — Erdogan called the conversation "completely false" and a "dirty plot."

Of course, Internet users have quickly seen through Erdogan's veiled concerns for this menace to society and are using Google's DNS and various VPN routes to access and use Twitter. As you can see on tweereal.com's map, Twitter users are still active in Turkey.

"I believe that the authorities will never be able to stop people from using Twitter," continued Yurdam. "We'll always find alternative ways to access it. And even if people weren't able to access it, they would try to gather on other similar social networks. Twitter is vitally important for me and millions of Turkish citizens, because Turkish media is under a lot of pressure from the authorities. And social media is now effectively used as medium for sharing news here. In many ways, Turkish people see Twitter as their digital public space."

For several years now, social media has become an integral part of protests and revolutionary movements around the world, enabling important communication and planning like never before. And despite a technologically inept government's attempts to stop it, social media will continue to be a powerful and important tool that cannot and will not be silenced.
 

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Shrek1985

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abduly85 said:
Don't sweat it, they've pulled the trigger here annihilating many of the bystanders around Presidential Palace in Ankara:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MatY0R4XV8c

I just can't fathom how we, as Canadians in this forum, are not condemning this military coup? Some of us are even wishing it succeeded!
Do we really want another failed state like in Egypt with Sisi or in Iraq? I'm not a fan of Erdogan nor his policies, but at the end of day Turkish people have elected him/his party and in a democracy that's how it works (In Turkey it may be a flawed democracy, but a democracy still).
In the words of a wise-man: "If you thought Turkey was undemocratic yesterday wait till tomorrow [under military rule]"

Because different cultures and different ethics. I'm not arguing for moral relativism, I'm saying the ground truth in Turkey is not the same as in Canada. There are many military's with a coup tradition and each is different.

The Turkish army has a tradition dating back to Ataturk of acting in the best interests of the people and secular rule, even when the majority of the people vote for Islamic rule. This is a not uncommon sentiment historically around the Mediterranean and elsewhere where the military is seen as a sort of informal senate; a force that champions conservatism and guards and extols traditional values, acting a brake on radicalism.

For more information, I recommend Edward Lutwak's Coup de Ta; a Practical Guidebook.
 

abduly85

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jollyjacktar said:
If you think I approve the shooting of civilians, you can get stuffed. 

I won't cheer for him and would wish for his downfall as I don't like or trust his type. Turkey has done just fine in the past following Ataturk's directives for success.  Anyone who would return it to that will get my approval.  Lastly,  as others have pointed out here, Erdogon is anything but democratic.  You just wait to see the rule of law get thrown out the window now. He's a dictator.  You want to cheer for him, fill your boots,  I won't be joining you.

Typical cases of double standard and self contradiction. You "don't approve the shooting of civilians" nonetheless you're trigger happy and wishing if the coup jets had shot down a plane full of civilians (Turkish President's plane)! Can you please elaborate on this one? I really hope you're not a member of our fine military.

And "Turkey has done just fine in the past"? Ignorance strikes once again. Have you heard of the 2001 Turkish economic crisis? I have been to Turkey in the 90's and the Turkish currency (Lira) used to be  the laughing stock of other currencies. Turkey had one of the worst chronic inflation situations since the 70's. Compare that to the first decade following the AKP's succession to power (2002 to 2012). I've been there lately and trust me, they're no Greece or Portugal when it comes to economic health (Growth from between 2002-07 was fastest of any five year period since the beginning of the Republic).

Once again, I'm not a fan of Erdogan nor of his recent rounding up and arresting of many coup "conspirators", everything should follow the rule of law. Nonetheless a coup is definitely not the answer; ballot boxes are!
 
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jollyjacktar

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I am not even going to waste my time debating with you.  You stick you your opinion and I'll stick to mine.
 

abduly85

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Shrek1985 said:
Because different cultures and different ethics. I'm not arguing for moral relativism, I'm saying the ground truth in Turkey is not the same as in Canada. There are many military's with a coup tradition and each is different.

The Turkish army has a tradition dating back to Ataturk of acting in the best interests of the people and secular rule, even when the majority of the people vote for Islamic rule. This is a not uncommon sentiment historically around the Mediterranean and elsewhere where the military is seen as a sort of informal senate; a force that champions conservatism and guards and extols traditional values, acting a brake on radicalism.

For more information, I recommend Edward Lutwak's Coup de Ta; a Practical Guidebook.

I fail to see how some armies in the middle east are "acting in the best interests of the people" when they conduct a coup d'etat? We have a clear case in point in the military junta rule in Egypt under Sisi where more than 3,500 have been killed and 10's of thousands are detained and imprisoned with no or laughable charges! Yup, that sounds like their best interest.
One thing we need to realize and appreciate is the Turkish economy. A successful military coup d'etat in Turkey would've devastated the economy. And a stable economy is really what everybody is after.
 

McG

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tomahawk6 said:
Mods IMO its time to close this thread.Thanks
Why?  If you are bored, walk away from it.  We don't need to block discussion that is remaining civil and free of OPSEC violations.
 

tomahawk6

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Its not boredom as the entertainment value is high.From a security standpoint the thread is enlightening.The faux coups is done is all I was getting at.
 

cupper

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tomahawk6 said:
Its not boredom as the entertainment value is high.From a security standpoint the thread is enlightening.The faux coups is done is all I was getting at.

Could just be the end of the first act. You just never know.

Especially if the whole event was staged to allow the President to consolidate more power and eliminate those who could be in opposition to him.
 

tomahawk6

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This article by Ralph Peters posits that the new Caliphate is Turkey and the Caliph is Erdogan.Events seem to support this view.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/07/21/turkey-and-erdogan-here-comes-real-caliphate.html

If today’s Western leaders possess one general trait, it’s a genius for self-deception. Insisting that Islamist terror has nothing to do with Islam, or that religion has no strategic impact, or that all human beings want freedom and democracy, amounts to declaring that up is down, right is left and night is day.

And midnight is coming for millions in Turkey, even as we insist that a dying flashlight is the sun.
 

PuckChaser

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Would make sense, considering ISIL is surrounded by enemies on 3 fronts, but any weapons/money/people can flow in and out through the Turkish border.

No wonder the Kurds are pissed.
 

Jarnhamar

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abduly85 said:
Once again, I'm not a fan of Erdogan nor of his recent rounding up and arresting of many coup "conspirators", everything should follow the rule of law. Nonetheless a coup is definitely not the answer; ballot boxes are!

Ballot boxes like in North Korea where there is one name on the ballot and you get a bullet to the head if you draw another box?
 

CougarKing

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Colin P said:
RT News was claiming that 14 naval vessels were unaccounted for.

Speaking of these "missing" warships and Coast Guard vessels, they may have fled to Greece.

The Turkish Navy frigate Yavuz  was mentioned in other defense forums as being among the missing ships, though I am still double-checking looking for an alternate source.

Reuters

Turkey scrambles fighter jets after reported sighting of missing vessels

Turkish F-16 fighter jets scrambled on Wednesday to check reports that missing Turkish coastguard vessels had appeared in Greek waters in the Aegean Sea, Turkish military sources said.

They gave no further details. Some Turkish military hardware was seized and used in last weekend's failed coup in which more than 230 people were killed. Officials have said no military equipment remains unaccounted for.

Turkey's government and military General Staff say they are fully in control of the situation in the country but tensions remain high as the authorities purge tens of thousands of suspected coup supporters from state institutions, including in the armed forces.
 

abduly85

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Jarnhamar said:
Ballot boxes like in North Korea where there is one name on the ballot and you get a bullet to the head if you draw another box?

Quite the contrary. In fact, 4 main parties were contending (AKP, CHP, HDP, MHP) and the AKP clinched the majority of the seats and 50% of the popular vote. Here's a link for more info:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_general_election,_November_2015

Can you please share any sources about Turks getting bullets in head for drawing another box?
Thanks, I'm eager to read about them.
 

AbdullahD

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From wiki
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_fraud_and_violence_during_the_Turkish_general_election,_June_2015

Opinion piece
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/426504/turkey-election-results-fraud

Erdogan and repressive murderous policies
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Chomsky-US-Ally-Erdogan-a-Murderer-Viciously-Killing-Kurds-20160124-0026.html

Rigged elections
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303978304579475510758359516

Erdogans sons under investigation
https://www.rt.com/news/332897-erdogan-son-italy-prosecution/

I really not sure where to start
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/24/turkeys-president-recep-tayyip-erdogan-women-not-equal-men

Pretty much the same to me Slavey85 (mods this is not an insult, his name is slave 85 in arabic, i simply translated it... im innocent i swear ;) *gets banned*).

Abduly85, Erdogan is no saint and has many serious flaws. He is likely not the Islamic saviour the Muslim world needs, no leader is perfect but to negate his bad qualities simply because he is Muslim is not wise. I suspect by your name you are a Muslim brother, coupled with your sentiments here it almost confirms it.

I really have no true opinion on Erdogan, I hate seeing more people dead... but this purge that is going is very very troublesome and extremely un Islamic. I am to tired to bring all my daleels ill suspect you will want but suffice to say purging 50,000 or however many people who earned their job, with no evidence is oppression and that is Haram.

#army.cafatawanumber34

Asalaam waleykum bro, still love ya, but be careful on blind love okay? Also I have spent many an hour in online conversations with people from this forum and have grown to respect almost all of them. So before launching baseless allegations at the membership here take a look at what they have said over the years.

Abdullah
 
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