Justin Trudeau hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

We did’t forget how to build a sleeping bag- we got overly clever and thought that we could improve on the two down bag system.

Turns out, we were wrong…

 

[MilEME09]

How much you wanna bet these were delivered at the min 7.3 clo and not higher

 

[Kirkhill]

At times I think we are waiting for Global Warming to solve all our problems.

...

Mon pays, ce n'est pas un pays c'est l'hiver....

Or the anglo version

9 months of winter and 3 months of hard sledding.

...

Most folks seem to be tolerating hanging around the northern vestibule, waiting for an invitation to the sunnier lands down south. Not many seem to be drawn to the beauty of cold, clear midwinter nights.

 

[KevinB]

I did a few Wintex's in Valcartier mid-winter in the old olive green uniforms. It was light recce force vs light recce force stuff. We hit -35C (which is where the scales match one another, for our American friends) and lower at night. We slept in survival caches we built for ourselves in the deep snow (usually under a canopy of evergreen). All the gear -mukluks, Extreme Cold Arctic Combat pants and jacket, mitts, tuques and double layered sleeping bag - was made in Canada and not only did we not get cold, but we were nice and toasty in the bags and, after only half a kilometer walking or snowshoeing, we had to strip the jacket open because we were too warm.

How can we, in Canada, forget how to produce gear like that?

The gear wasn’t actually that good.
The old two bag and flannel liner sleeping bag was okay, the only great thing really was the Mukluks - and then only if you got two sets of the felt booties and felt liners — as if they got soaked and you froze.
The rest was mediocre to poor, and the sweet freeze dry cycle was constantly at work. That gear was also quite bulky

Years ago one used to be able to chop trees and make all sorts of improvised shelters with heat reflectors and use pine boughs as insulation as well. Now in order to be environmentally friendly you can’t be doing that. I’ve slept on top of my sleeping bag bare ass in -30C weather in an improvised pine bough hootch (admittedly with a big ass white man fire and a heat reflector wall) but not really a tactical application— when we had to kill the fire, you definitely need the bags, and where glad for the pine boughs around you and your air mattress— and god help you if it had a leak.


Generally higher arctic has hard pack snow /ice and no tree cover so the winds are also an issue. I’ve no idea what the Ex situation was for the 3VP - but if you can’t make snow or ice improvements to a shelter it can be pretty fricken miserable regardless.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

You can build a snow cave or an igloo (an igloo is an artform- not recommended for noobies. A snowcave anyone can build, as long as you know how to tunnel) and inside you can get temperature to just below zero, without much effort.

 

[FJAG]

The gear wasn’t actually that good.

I'll disagree with that.

We used to do 3-4 week exercises in Pet with just helicopters in Pet in a wet cold and week-or-more-long winter indoc and bty exercise in Shilo in a dry cold and my gear worked well in both. (except that candle trick in an arctic tent - that never worked - Coleman was our friend until lights out) And two tours AvConDet in Rogers Pass - no sleeping out in the woods but more than my fair share of 24-72 hour stints firing at mountains in the middle of driving blizzards catnapping in the trucks.



With mukluks, my winter crew suit pants and clothing layers under a parka I could easily do hours sitting still in an OP. Once you started moving in winter you had to start opening up to ventilate to prevent sweating. My sleeping bag was always good - the air mattress at times a little iffy (cold shoulders and hips at the pressure points) - but generally good.

Yup. There are some things on the market these days that are probably better - but for the 60s, 70s and 80s that stuff was pretty good (I presume it was good for a few more decades after that. The thermals I got later were great. I agree with @Oldgateboatdriver; our kit was good. Not marginal, not below par, but pretty darn good.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I did the old Advanced Winter Warfare/Winter Warfare Instructor course back circa 1965. Most of our training was on the Churchill Plain, plus a week+ was in the very high Arctic.

We examined and tried American, Brit and Norwegian kit - none of it was anywhere near as good as what we had, some of it was dangerous crap.

Our kit wasn't perfect but it was "good enough" at -50 and below and for living in 10 man arctic tents and in various improvised snow shelters.

BTW no skidos, not even for Maj Wilf Snell, the 50+ year old OC of the School of Foot's (RCS of I) 'Environmental Training Coy.' He marched, on his snowshoes, doing his full share of toboggan pulling, along with everyone else: candidates and instructors, alike.

 

[Happy Guy]

You actually aren’t even a AUKUS Pillar 2 member sorry to be a buzzkill.

Pillar 1 being the nuclear sub part, and Pillar 2 being the non nuclear defense and technology section. They are non 5E in Pillar 2…

Reliability or lack therefore has folks go around you to make new alliances. When someone no longer aligns with your interests you stop helping them. Turkey and France have a lot of issues from their various stunts over the years, not sure I’d want to be compared to them…


Canada as a country hasn’t pulled it’s weight in a long time.

Canada eyes AUKUS membership over China concerns

To be clear it seems that Canada would like to join for Phase 2.

Canada is actively engaging in discussions with the United Kingdom, Australia, and the United States to join an expanded Aukus security partnership, citing rising concerns over China’s growing influence in the Asia Pacific region.​

During a recent visit to Tokyo, Canadian Defence Minister Bill Blair expressed Ottawa’s commitment to counteracting Beijing’s increasing military presence in the region.

Canada is particularly focused on participating in the second phase of Aukus, which aims to foster collaboration on cutting-edge military technologies like artificial intelligence and quantum computing. However, details of Canada’s role in this expansion remain unspecified.

“There have been important discussions about processes and platforms on a project-specific basis on where other nations, including Japan and ourselves, might participate,” Blair stated, during his meeting with Japanese Defence Minister Minoru Kihara.

Japan is also considering its own role within Aukus. Blair expressed optimism about these negotiations, saying, “I would respectfully wait until they’ve come to their determination, but I’m very optimistic.”

The current phase of Aukus, established in 2021, focuses on helping Australia acquire nuclear-powered attack submarines. Blair’s trip to Japan followed a visit to South Korea, which is similarly exploring the possibility of participating in the security partnership.

Canada’s defence responsibilities are expanding both at home and abroad, and Blair highlighted the government’s efforts to increase military spending. “Next year, my defence budget will rise by 27% over this year. And… in the next three or four years, our defence spending will triple,” he remarked.

Beyond Aukus discussions, Blair and Kihara also addressed recent incursions by China into Japanese waters, which led Tokyo to issue formal protests to Beijing.

 

[markppcli]

The gear wasn’t actually that good.
The old two bag and flannel liner sleeping bag was okay, the only great thing really was the Mukluks - and then only if you got two sets of the felt booties and felt liners — as if they got soaked and you froze.
The rest was mediocre to poor, and the sweet freeze dry cycle was constantly at work. That gear was also quite bulky

Years ago one used to be able to chop trees and make all sorts of improvised shelters with heat reflectors and use pine boughs as insulation as well. Now in order to be environmentally friendly you can’t be doing that. I’ve slept on top of my sleeping bag bare ass in -30C weather in an improvised pine bough hootch (admittedly with a big ass white man fire and a heat reflector wall) but not really a tactical application— when we had to kill the fire, you definitely need the bags, and where glad for the pine boughs around you and your air mattress— and god help you if it had a leak.


Generally higher arctic has hard pack snow /ice and no tree cover so the winds are also an issue. I’ve no idea what the Ex situation was for the 3VP - but if you can’t make snow or ice improvements to a shelter it can be pretty fricken miserable regardless.

I can speak to 3 VPs ex plan, and how it relates to sleeping bags. The goal was to move as light as possible, so they expected to go without tents for several days and “cold bag” it. This aligned with 1-11’s plan.

 

[markppcli]

I'll disagree with that.

We used to do 3-4 week exercises in Pet with just helicopters in Pet in a wet cold and week-or-more-long winter indoc and bty exercise in Shilo in a dry cold and my gear worked well in both. (except that candle trick in an arctic tent - that never worked - Coleman was our friend until lights out) And two tours AvConDet in Rogers Pass - no sleeping out in the woods but more than my fair share of 24-72 hour stints firing at mountains in the middle of driving blizzards catnapping in the trucks.

View attachment 87971View attachment 87972

With mukluks, my winter crew suit pants and clothing layers under a parka I could easily do hours sitting still in an OP. Once you started moving in winter you had to start opening up to ventilate to prevent sweating. My sleeping bag was always good - the air mattress at times a little iffy (cold shoulders and hips at the pressure points) - but generally good.

Yup. There are some things on the market these days that are probably better - but for the 60s, 70s and 80s that stuff was pretty good (I presume it was good for a few more decades after that. The thermals I got later were great. I agree with @Oldgateboatdriver; our kit was good. Not marginal, not below par, but pretty darn good.

What vents did you open up? There’s none on the parka, none on the ice pants, ect. It’s no longer to standard.

 

[RangerRay]

The old sleeping bag system we were issued in the early 90’s was warm, but weighed as much as a Buick. When I got out, I bought a -30 bag at MEC and was amazed at how light it was.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

What vents did you open up? There’s none on the parka, none on the ice pants, ect. It’s no longer to standard.

We unzipped zippers or took stuff off.

I pulled sled st -30C wearing just the wool shirt (circa 1951). You were cold for the first couple of minutes; after that, you were perfectly fine.

The issue here, I think, is not that there are better arctic bags on the market (there are). It is that we don’t want a -30c bag. That does us no good in the summer. We want a scaleable sleep system that works from 30C to -30C. It is still my position that, with minor tweaks, the 2 down bag system was peak sleeping bag.

 

[markppcli]

We unzipped zippers or took stuff off.

That’s sort of my point. If you look at what we issue for arctic gear it’s at odds with what we teach. We preach layers a shedding, but actually issue massive thick heavy parkas and a single insulation layer. The outer doesn’t vent, which is a further problem.

I pulled sled st -30C wearing just the wool shirt (circa 1951). You were cold for the first couple of minutes; after that, you were perfectly fine.

So you had a breathable insulating mid layer you could strip down to. Must be nice…

The issue here, I think, is not that there are better arctic bags on the market (there are). It is that we don’t want a -30c bag. That does us no good in the summer. We want a scaleable sleep system that works from 30C to -30C. It is still my position that, with minor tweaks, the 2 down bag system was peak sleeping bag.

I think 2 down bags works. And modernizing what we had was a good idea. I honestly like the new sleeping bags, but they need an extreme cold layer to cover off winter. That’s in the works but the issue is sending troops to do a winter tactical exercise in central Alaska before that happens is not a good plan.

 

[KevinB]

Perhaps I need to step back and make some allowances/clarifications:

From a late 1980’s standpoint the gear wasn’t great, and several pieces had changed (for the worse) from the 1950’s gear

The late 80’s issue flannel shirt and waffle garbage long underwear where actually at step backwards - while arguably more comfortable when doing nothing, they didn’t work for active - quiet - active - quiet periods like the older gear. Unless you had older ones to compare you probably wouldn’t know it wasn’t the same stuff as they where marked the same - but the material and designs where quite different. I ended up using a Norwegian sweater and their base layer - and then the US Army ECWSS long underwear - as it was way better in the 1990’s than the CAF stuff.

The Arctic Pants with the thick wool lining had been replaced by fuckknows what lining that was thinner and didn’t deal with being wet at all. The same went for the changes in a lot of linings for things. The US Army had adopted these wondrous brown ‘buffalo’ wool mid layer overalls - that where very similar to the lining material of the older CA Arctic pants - and one could wear them under the CA OD Wind Pants for probably the best combo of insulation and moisture wicking for that time period - you could even jump in them into Baffin Island without becoming an icicle.

- At some point someone also had decided that there was no need for the overall pants - and the suspenders and normal pant lengths was fine, it wasn’t till the the late 90’s when the overalls came back for winter gear.

Most of the items that had been prized for their insulation also kept deterioration from repeated cleanings. Stuff they had 2” of loft where down to 1/2” and no longer nearly as effective.

Which goes back to a more important aspect that good kit that when damaged or worn out isn’t good anymore. A lot of the old sleeping bags where tired AF given their repeated launderings - and some of them where just like sleeping on the ground.

 

[dimsum]

Years ago one used to be able to chop trees and make all sorts of improvised shelters with heat reflectors and use pine boughs as insulation as well. Now in order to be environmentally friendly you can’t be doing that.

Maybe that’s just the army? Aircrew survival courses do that.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

That’s sort of my point. If you look at what we issue for arctic gear it’s at odds with what we teach. We preach layers a shedding, but actually issue massive thick heavy parkas and a single insulation layer. The outer doesn’t vent, which is a further problem.



So you had a breathable insulating mid layer you could strip down to. Must be nice…


I think 2 down bags works. And modernizing what we had was a good idea. I honestly like the new sleeping bags, but they need an extreme cold layer to cover off winter. That’s in the works but the issue is sending troops to do a winter tactical exercise in central Alaska before that happens is not a good plan.

Wool is underrated winter clothing material.

The wool shirts from the 1950s were amazing. So were the wool/leather trigger gloves.

Fleece is ok- ish. I did the high arctic in the modern gortex/fleece clothing and am unconvinced that it was much of an improvement over the old winter gear.

 

[dapaterson]

Maybe that’s just the army? Aircrew survival courses do that.

Depends on the training areas and the number of candidates being taken through, plus the frequency of refresher training.

The Army could easily have thousands of people annually conducting that training. I don't think the volume being run through aircrew survival annually is close to that.

 

[KevinB]

Maybe that’s just the army? Aircrew survival courses do that.

For certain low volume courses you can - but as @dapaterson points out for the CA, most of their training areas would be barren if that occurred for regular exercise and basic WW, and the same is occurring down here.

Admittedly the whole tree thing is absolutely moot above the tree line - for either Arctic or Mountaineering, and above the tree line is where the environment really does try to kill you.

 

[Brad Sallows]

You can build a snow cave or an igloo (an igloo is an artform- not recommended for noobies. A snowcave anyone can build, as long as you know how to tunnel) and inside you can get temperature to just below zero, without much effort.

If you have six inches or more of hard snow, a one- or two-man shelter of blocks and slabs is easy to build.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Wool is underrated winter clothing material.

The wool shirts from the 1950s were amazing. So were the wool/leather trigger gloves.

Fleece is ok- ish. I did the high arctic in the modern gortex/fleece clothing and am unconvinced that it was much of an improvement over the old winter gear.

Meanwhile, me in my Smartwool long underwear at high altitude