Justin Trudeau hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[QV]

What makes people believe that if a position moves from mil to civ, the funding for it won't move also?

There needs to be a wholesale restructure to better function within present constraints.

 

[QV]

What is that ? The whole reason for Logistics is to support operational commitments.

There are tons of CAF positions that are not committed to CAF operations and deployed ops. Those can be civvies.

 

[Halifax Tar]

There are tons of CAF positions that are not committed to CAF operations and deployed ops. Those can be civvies.

Such as ?

Speaking only of my own arch's, civis already massively out number us in Supply. BLog in Halifax is pretty much a civilian organization now with a Cdr as a CO, because Snr RCN Log Os need something call a command.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

What is that ? The whole reason for Logistics is to support operational commitments.

So do we Force Generate logisticians out of Clothing Stores or the CFSDs or am I missing something? I have the same arguments on a Sigs side with how many PYs are situated in "supporting operations" from Ottawa, while we cobble together a Bde Sig Sqn from hopes and dreams out of the Field Force.

 

[Kirkhill]

What makes people believe that if a position moves from mil to civ, the funding for it won't move also?

Personally I am not talking about moving existing positions from military to civilian personnel. I am suggesting removing tasks from the "Honey-Do" list of CAF personnel and reallocating them to civilian personnel.

This assumes ---

A willing government that wishes to provide a useful defence within NATO defined limits while not upsetting the citizenry with talk of "guns in the street".

NATO allows for paramilitary forces to be taken into consideration as part of National Defence plans. It allows for civilian support. CSE is a civilian organization. Canadian Space Agency supplied military capabilities. Communications are a joint civil-military responsibility..... You can probably come up with more examples than me.

An aircraft stooging around over Canadian waters and lands could as easily be paid out of Environment or Emergency Preparedness budgets as National Defence budgets. Paint it orange and stick a MAD stinger on the back end.

....

Again, this assumes a willing government.

 

[Halifax Tar]

So do we Force Generate logisticians out of Clothing Stores or the CFSDs or am I missing something? I have the same arguments on a Sigs side with how many PYs are situated in "supporting operations" from Ottawa, while we cobble together a Bde Sig Sqn from hopes and dreams out of the Field Force.

We sure do. Those Loggies in Base TN lines, Clothing and the ORs (ect) all FG as individuals. The units themselves don't, but the Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen in those UICs do.

 

[Kirkhill]

What is that ? The whole reason for Logistics is to support operational commitments.

Who supports garrisons, headquarters, training establishments and maintenance facilities?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Who supports garrisons, headquarters, training establishments and maintenance facilities?

Bases have a Technical Services branch (Base Supply, TN, RCEME ect) that support all of that. That is your 2rd line support in the CAF; or in my world Second Line of Supply.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Such as ?

Speaking only of my own arch's, civis already massively out number us in Supply. BLog in Halifax is pretty much a civilian organization now with a Cdr as a CO, because Snr RCN Log Os need something call a command.

It's worth doing some kind of study but, for a start using the back of a small envelope, many functions of the (long term, nondeployable, largely sedentary Class B staffed, few line authourity responsibilities) ARes CBG HQs could be civilianized to some extent I'm guessing...

 

[Halifax Tar]

It's worth doing some kind of study but, for a start using the back of a small envelope, many functions of the (long term, nondeployable, largely sedentary Class B staffed, few line authourity responsibilities) ARes CBG HQs could be civilianized to some extent I'm guessing...

The CBG HQs don't have to be sedentary, its just a mentality that has to be broken. I was blown away that they wouldn't use me as the RQ for the CBG when we were called out for Hurricane and Fire response. Instead they used a Sgt Cook because I was in the HQ not ARes.

What a mismanagement of resources.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The CBG HQs don't have to be sedentary, its just a mentality that has to be broken. I was blown away that they wouldn't use me as the RQ for the CBG when we were called out for Hurricane and Fire response. Instead they used a Sgt Cook because I was in the HQ not ARes.

What a mismanagement of resources.

Indeed...

When the Bde HQ downloads all planning for major exercises to a 'lead unit' in the Bde, which started happening regularly around the early 2000s as I recall, they cease to be a proper HQ and become a (pretty inefficient) post office...

 

[Kirkhill]

A thought -

The Royal Mail - now Canada Post.

Every army unit has a mail clerk. In some respects a bit of an anachronism perhaps.

But....

The Royal Mail started out as a precursor of the Signals but was essentially a Logistical enterprise given that in 1603 the only means of communicating over long distances was to write on a piece of something and carry it. Feet, horses, wagons and ships had to be hired. The canny Scot in charge realized that it was costing him an awful lot to hire those capabilities for a few letters every now and then. So he rented out the service to his taxpayers. The taxpayers started shipping their own letters, business picked up. People started shipping goods along with their letters. Then they started getting rides with the mail coaches and on the mail ships and using the livery stables to swap horses and get a tankard of ale.

....

And I am moving North again.

....

We have been talking about Arctic Mobility, logistics, Air Rangers, subsidized shipping, satellite communications, internet

If Jimmy the Sixth and First were looking at this problem I think he might be looking at Canada Post as part of the solution.

A uniformed Federal Government service that can support both civil and military needs - both of the government and the communities.

 

[Halifax Tar]

A thought -

The Royal Mail - now Canada Post.

Every army unit has a mail clerk. In some respects a bit of an anachronism perhaps.

But....

The Royal Mail started out as a precursor of the Signals but was essentially a Logistical enterprise given that in 1603 the only means of communicating over long distances was to write on a piece of something and carry it. Feet, horses, wagons and ships had to be hired. The canny Scot in charge realized that it was costing him an awful lot to hire those capabilities for a few letters every now and then. So he rented out the service to his taxpayers. The taxpayers started shipping their own letters, business picked up. People started shipping goods along with their letters. Then they started getting rides with the mail coaches and on the mail ships and using the livery stables to swap horses and get a tankard of ale.

....

And I am moving North again.

....

We have been talking about Arctic Mobility, logistics, Air Rangers, subsidized shipping, satellite communications, internet

If Jimmy the Sixth and First were looking at this problem I think he might be looking at Canada Post as part of the solution.

A uniformed Federal Government service that can support both civil and military needs - both of the government and the communities.

In the RCN mail is handled by the Ships Office and Weather folks.

 

[Kirkhill]

In the RCN mail is handled by the Ships Office and Weather folks.

How does the mail get to the brow in the first place though?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Indeed...

When the Bde HQ downloads all planning for major exercises to a 'lead unit' in the Bde, which started happening regularly around the early 2000s as I recall, they cease to be a proper HQ and become a (pretty inefficient) post office...

Maybe this was a local thing for your CBG, but the HQ I was at was definably the driver for major exercise planning while I was there. Which they again would not not deploy me on. Because I was at the HQ and not ARes.

How does the mail get to the brow in the first place though?

By the Clerks or Weathermen who go get it from the fleet mail office.

 

[Kirkhill]

By the Clerks or Weathermen who go get it from the fleet mail office.

Foinnne...

 

[YZT580]

Personally I am not talking about moving existing positions from military to civilian personnel. I am suggesting removing tasks from the "Honey-Do" list of CAF personnel and reallocating them to civilian personnel.

This assumes ---

A willing government that wishes to provide a useful defence within NATO defined limits while not upsetting the citizenry with talk of "guns in the street".

NATO allows for paramilitary forces to be taken into consideration as part of National Defence plans. It allows for civilian support. CSE is a civilian organization. Canadian Space Agency supplied military capabilities. Communications are a joint civil-military responsibility..... You can probably come up with more examples than me.

An aircraft stooging around over Canadian waters and lands could as easily be paid out of Environment or Emergency Preparedness budgets as National Defence budgets. Paint it orange and stick a MAD stinger on the back end.

....

Again, this assumes a willing government.

Pardon my naiveite, but why are you talking about transferring tasks to civilians. Why not hire into the CAF as auxiliaries as was done a lot in WW2. If basic training was provided you would have a partially trained corps of re-enforcements already vetted. And it would encourage them to consider themselves as part of the forces rather than as civies.

 

[Kirkhill]

Pardon my naiveite, but why are you talking about transferring tasks to civilians. Why not hire into the CAF as auxiliaries as was done a lot in WW2. If basic training was provided you would have a partially trained corps of re-enforcements already vetted. And it would encourage them to consider themselves as part of the forces rather than as civies.

It is a possible course of action.

But WW2 was done against a backdrop of an engaged population. Our current population cannot be described as engaged. My sense is that they don't want to know and the politicians are happy with that.

Raising an army is not compatible with "Sunny Ways". And I don't think any of our parties, including the Conservatives, are ready to go the Swedish route and start issuing brochures like this:

The brochure If Crisis or War Comes

The brochure If Crisis or War Comes describes how those of us who live in Sweden can become better prepared for the consequences of serious accidents, extreme weather, IT attacks or military conflicts.

www.msb.se

This was issued in 2021 in the run-up to the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Our politicians would prefer that we were seen as a safe haven that is secure from the ills of the world. Even the Conservatives would prefer that we were perceived that way. They want to attract investors that want to build LNG plants, Lithium mines and Windmills so that we can make lots of lovely money. Part of their sales pitch is that we are not Sweden and we are not America.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Traditions are answers to questions we have forgotten.

Part of tradition should be to maintain a functional military...

Seems to me, having a look at history books since Confederation, that maintaining a functional military outside of global war time frames, only occurred in Canada from approximately 1951-1967.
So the national tradition appears to be something other than responsible statehood in military and foreign affairs. Seems to range from mostly irrational concepts of “peace dividends” and outright political and cultural detestation of anything military especially 1992-Present and that includes, unfortunately, Afghanistan, FYR, and even leaving Cyprus.
Never forget or forgive the chorus of people who opposed, obstructed, sabotaged, propagandized and generally waged war against this country’s participation in Afghanistan and fighting ISIL. Those same people currently hold the federal power or have determinative sway over the issue just one step (or thumb) away from power.

 

[GK .Dundas]

The problem is no one in NATO slapped us hard enough when Papa Trudeau pulled this stupidity in the 1970s. It emboldened successive governments to treat NATO benchmarks as a suggestion, and now we're in the fine mess we find outselves in.

Until we get a Pink Slip from NATO saying "thanks, but no thanks.." the cycle continues.

Actually is was explained to him by a very good friend of his. Chancellor Schmidt who on a long walk one afternoon who quietly explained the reality of the situation to him.
It was very eye-opening for the Prime Minister. Apparently it was not what he'd been hearing from closest advisors..