The end of Kiwi shoe polish?

[dapaterson]

What makes you think it is not? Anyone sailing on a RCN ship will realize quickly that it is the focus of the RCN (why do you think you constantly see comments here by RCN engineers saying that we drive the frigates like they were stolen?).

But again, your comment is Army centric. Unlike the Army and RCAF, merely by sailing we are "off-base" and in the world either in the eyes of the Canadian public or, on the high seas and foreign waters, in the eyes of all foreigners. On the great commons of the high seas, we not only represent Canada, we ARE Canada. Our mere presence in and of itself is a diplomatic act in peacetime. It tells the world "we are here, exercising those rights international laws grant us and stand ready to protect Canadian interests".

Perhaps immersion for all these years in the maritime world makes it difficult for sailors to communicate to the other elements how foreign the maritime world is from the land based ones and it is our fault for not breaking through that barrier.

I came to that realization a long while ago but some times ago, not too long, I believe that it was by Infanteer, there was a post in one of the fora here that put it all in perspective for me. In that post, he described the "area" of concern/responsibility of that various Army units It started with platoon at about half a kilometres and ended with theatre level command with an area of about 100 to 200 kilometres.

It really drove home that we are in different worlds. At 100 km on a warship, I am in a knife fight. As a frigate CO, I am worried about what's one thousand or two kilometres from me, because at a closing speed of 24-25 knots (a comfortable 12 knots on each side), I am meeting that threat in about 24 hours. I won't even go into AAW where the knife fight starts around 250-300 km and I'd rather have a few thousand kilometres warning of an oncoming raid. To navies, a full ocean, like the North-Atlantic is a single theatre of war and treated as such.

Ships are not independent; they are a part of a larger, interdependent warfighting group (combining sensors and strike ability with other ships and air assets). A single clapped out, unfit for sea Canadian CPF is largely irrelevant in naval terms. Cocktails on the flight deck are irrelevant when your leadership have permitted materiel, equipment and personnel to deteriorate to their current state. (And protected and promoted Haydn and others.)

Based on the force that the RCN can project and the C2 needed, the CRCN could easily be downranked to a Commodore.

But yeah, you've got awnings over the flight deck and duty free booze to serve to senior officers in high necked whites as the vital ground.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Ships are not independent; they are a part of a larger, interdependent warfighting group (combining sensors and strike ability with other ships and air assets). A single clapped out, unfit for sea Canadian CPF is largely irrelevant in naval terms. Cocktails on the flight deck are irrelevant when your leadership have permitted material, equipment and personnel to deteriorate to their current state. (And protected and promoted Haydn and others.)

Based on the force that the RCN can project and the C2 needed, the CRCN could easily be downranked to a Commodore.

But yeah, you've got awnings over the flight deck and duty free booze to serve to senior officers in high necked whites as the vital ground.

QFTFT

 

[FSTO]

What we currently consider a formal business suit was almost considered a form of ‘athleisure‘ back when introduced, hence the term ‘lounge suit’. Fashion changes over time. Civilian fashion tends to change faster than military fashion, but it’s all still fashion.

As I’ve said before, given the amount of time and energy that the CAF devotes to uniforms, you’d think we’d have two things: a sponsored postgrad to the London College of Fashion so we’d have experts to help us actually know what we’re doing, and a supply system that is actually capable of providing those uniforms in the correct sizes.

During the month of December I wore a variety of my Bahraini custom made suits. I received many compliments from my co workers at C Navy. I like wearing the suits and I try my best to make the crappy Logistik stuff look somewhat presentable.

 

[GR66]

Ships are not independent; they are a part of a larger, interdependent warfighting group (combining sensors and strike ability with other ships and air assets). A single clapped out, unfit for sea Canadian CPF is largely irrelevant in naval terms. Cocktails on the flight deck are irrelevant when your leadership have permitted material, equipment and personnel to deteriorate to their current state. (And protected and promoted Haydn and others.)

Based on the force that the RCN can project and the C2 needed, the CRCN could easily be downranked to a Commodore.

But yeah, you've got awnings over the flight deck and duty free booze to serve to senior officers in high necked whites as the vital ground.

Is that really much different than a clapped out Army unit showing up in blue berets to show that "Canada's back"?

 

[dapaterson]

Is that really much different than a clapped out Army unit showing up in blue berets to show that "Canada's back"?

Not at all. The Army has "formations" that lack the SUSTAIN capability - formation commanders are really managers, unable to exercise their commands due to systemic under-resourcing. They lack equipment, materiel and personnel. A single MGen would be more than ample as Commander for the Canadian Army.

 

[FSTO]

Ships are not independent; they are a part of a larger, interdependent warfighting group (combining sensors and strike ability with other ships and air assets). A single clapped out, unfit for sea Canadian CPF is largely irrelevant in naval terms. Cocktails on the flight deck are irrelevant when your leadership have permitted materiel, equipment and personnel to deteriorate to their current state. (And protected and promoted Haydn and others.)

Based on the force that the RCN can project and the C2 needed, the CRCN could easily be downranked to a Commodore.

But yeah, you've got awnings over the flight deck and duty free booze to serve to senior officers in high necked whites as the vital ground.

Even a small ship sends a message.

A textbook example of small gun gunboat diplomacy - HMS TRENT in Guyana

A blog about UK defence issues which tries to put a positive and fresh look at many current matters impacting UK and wider defence.

thinpinstripedline.blogspot.com

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Ships are not independent; they are a part of a larger, interdependent warfighting group (combining sensors and strike ability with other ships and air assets). A single clapped out, unfit for sea Canadian CPF is largely irrelevant in naval terms.

Semi fair comment: But what makes you think it's the job of the RCN leadership to provide warships? The leadership of the RCN was talking replacement of the CPF to the ears of the civil government from the moment the first batch of CPF was finished hitting the water (that's 1994 BTW) It's the job of the civilian government to provide these ships, which as of now is 15 years behind in replacing the CPF's with the proper nextgen warship. That has nothing to do with the fact that there are diplomatic functions to be performed.

I think I will give up trying to explain to soldiers who only understand their job as training (and nothing else) inside their own bases as their only task until deployed on actual operations that navies are on duty representing their country in the world every day and every minute that they are out of harbour, in functions of nationhood that exceed war fighting and have been the tasks of navies everywhere of at least the last 500 years.

They say that war is the continuation of diplomacy by other means. Navies are diplomacy 100% of the time, in war ... or in peace also.

 

[dapaterson]

The role of senior military leadership is to prepare for the future. Letting your fleets rust out, failing to ensure sustainment and materiel, are failures of leadership.

 

[FSTO]

The role of senior military leadership is to prepare for the future. Letting your fleets rust out, failing to ensure sustainment and materiel, are failures of leadership.

So the entire military and political leadership in Canada have consistently failed in that aspect of leadership since 1867.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Semi fair comment: But what makes you think it's the job of the RCN leadership to provide warships? The leadership of the RCN was talking replacement of the CPF to the ears of the civil government from the moment the first batch of CPF was finished hitting the water (that's 1994 BTW) It's the job of the civilian government to provide these ships, which as of now is 15 years behind in replacing the CPF's with the proper nextgen warship. That has nothing to do with the fact that there are diplomatic functions to be performed.

I think I will give up trying to explain to soldiers who only understand their job as training (and nothing else) inside their own bases as their only task until deployed on actual operations that navies are on duty representing their country in the world every day and every minute that they are out of harbour, in functions of nationhood that exceed war fighting and have been the tasks of navies everywhere of at least the last 500 years.

They say that war is the continuation of diplomacy by other means. Navies are diplomacy 100% of the time, in war ... or in peace also.

I think you're grossly over-simplifying what Armies do and how they function.

I was fortunate to have had a cup of coffee in both organizations, nothing the Navy does is unique or special.

eFP Latvia is literally the Army's version of what the Navy calls "waving the flag"... it has way more of a diplomatic impact than a token Frigate sailing in to a Port for a few days once a year.

What's funny is that the missions the Navy could have an actual impact with, it seems loath to want to do.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

So the entire military and political leadership in Canada have consistently failed in that aspect of leadership since 1867.

It is a Canadian tradition to let our Military brain-trust wither on the vine in times of peace.

This is usually followed up with a glaring defeat at the opening of hostilities that creates a mini-crisis which forces the organization to bring some adults in to right the ship

 

[FSTO]

I think you're grossly over-simplifying what Armies do and how they function.

I was fortunate to have had a cup of coffee in both organizations, nothing the Navy does is unique or special.

eFP Latvia is literally the Army's version of what the Navy calls "waving the flag"... it has way more of a diplomatic impact than a token Frigate sailing in to a Port for a few days once a year.

What's funny is that the missions the Navy could have an actual impact with, it seems loath to want to do.

The beauty of Navies is that they can send a powerful message without setting a foot on the ground.
But I agree that our Navy hasn’t done something like that since El Salvador in the 1930’s

The R.C.N. and Gun-Boat Diplomacy in the Caribbean on JSTOR

Richard A. Preston, The R.C.N. and Gun-Boat Diplomacy in the Caribbean, Military Affairs, Vol. 36, No. 2 (Apr., 1972), pp. 41-44

www.jstor.org

 

[OldSolduer]

It is a Canadian tradition to let our Military brain-trust wither on the vine in times of peace.

This is usually followed up with a glaring defeat at the opening of hostilities that creates a mini-crisis which forces the organization to bring some adults in to right the ship

I would venture to say the politicians are responsible for a lot of this.

 

[Kilted]

There are other companies that make shoe polish. Its not like we are going to be teaching how to make home-made shoe-polish on BMQ.

 

[dimsum]

If you're a company officer where I work, the expectation in the Office is suit jacket at a minimum:



When I'm in the field, it's collared shirt and slacks, even when I myself am working in the field. It's a perception and an image the Company wants its Officers to project.

It's the same in the mining, oil & gas, forestry, etc. No business leader shows up looking like a slob or with purple hair.

CAF dress standards are completely out of touch now with the Corporate World.

So…you’re saying “yes” for DEUs, right?

 

[Good2Golf]

There are other companies that make shoe polish. Its not like we are going to be teaching how to make home-made shoe-polish on BMQ.

Ummmm, you know this is a thread about shoe polish, right? Not sure where you figure discussing shoe polish fits into that…

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

So…you’re saying “yes” for DEUs, right?

Especially if they are cut like the Navy or CANSOFCOM. The Air Force and Army DEUs are terrible....

 

[Good2Golf]

The Air Force and Army DEUs are terrible....

 

[rmc_wannabe]

It is a Canadian tradition to let our Military brain-trust wither on the vine in times of peace.

This is usually followed up with a glaring defeat at the opening of hostilities that creates a mini-crisis which forces the organization to bring some adults in to right the ship

I would venture to say the politicians are responsible for a lot of this.

This, my friends, stems from a colonial mindset that has been at the heart of our nation since the first garrisons were told "ça Ira, nous allons retourner!" as their ships headed back to France.

We have never been more than an appendage of a larger body that would, in theory, come to save the day in times of crisis; or conversely, be cut to save the larger body:

-New France was handed to the British because "screw fur and the cold; we'd rather have sugar, Louisiana, and a warm island in the Carribean."

-The British were more than happy to see Canada divested given responsibility for its own domestic matters, including Defense. So it could finish conquering Africa and India.

-We joined the Allies 8 years after the Statute of Westminster; and NATO, NORAD and the UN within 2 decades of that.

"Canada" as a nation has never stood alone to protect the homeland in our 156 years as a nation, 450 plus years of colonial history, or a millenia plus of continuous habitation by Indigennous Peoples. It has never been the MO and it definitely will not win you votes in the political arena to bolster our defence posture at home or abroad.

I feel like everyone from MacDonald to Trudeau the Impotent has the same defence slogan stolen from Homer Simpson's Sanitation Commissioner campaign:



Its with this colonial mentality, God forbid, that we will be subjugated by whoever's next to take on this frozen, resource rich, landmass between 3 oceans. The problem is that "someone else" isn't going to be as laissez-faire or forgiving as the U.S./NATO have been.

That thought alone is what terrifies me about Defence in Canada in 2024.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Double post, but wait.... Shoe polish.....

Saphir is my go to now. Great product really.