Majority of Canadians not interested in joining the CAF

[daftandbarmy]

Stop telling kids the training is exciting…when the reality is they won’t snap a round off before the new fiscal because money wasn’t planned .

No one 'tells' them, they expect to experience what they see in the media. And they should be able to get the toughest kind of training, of course, because we need them to be able to handle the toughest situations in combat.

The fact that the CAF, based on recent conversations with serving members, continually fails to do this to the point that people leave because they are bored/ unchallenged is an appalling failure on various levels.

 

[TacticalTea]

Talking about the behaviours of 'Gen Z' as if millions of people in that generation will all act the same way is a huge mistake.

I agree. As I've alluded to, I think there's still a large amount of Gen Z's that are active, switched on, and driven individuals, looking for a challenge. No reason we can't convince those kids to get in.

Honestly, I don't think "people not joining" is the problem. Or at least it's not "people not wanting to join". But the application process takes an entire year to get in if you're lucky.

Our problem isn't getting people interested in the CAF; it's actually getting them enrolled, and then keeping them once they are.

This.

Eh, that hasn't been my experience. People aren't shocked about having to be physically fit / active. Hell, the FORCE test is simple enough that it's hard to argue that we actually expect them to be physically fit / active. What they might be legitimately shocked / annoyed at is that they're forced to do some useless PSP-led bottom-common-denominator group PT, rather than allowing them time to work on achieving their own personal fitness goals.

This!

I don't think people are shocked that they're not just left alone after joining. They're frustrated that they're getting in, and then expected to sit around on PAT platoon doing nothing all day because there's a 14 month backlog to get them on their occupational training.

Oh yeah. The government is asking for more than we can give. We're in peacetime, there's no reason for operations to be such a detriment to training.

And yes, I would certainly say that if you don't actually have something constructive to do with people who are sitting around doing nothing, then at least let them "work from home". I'd rather they be wasting time playing video games because they like playing video games than wasting time sitting around twiddling their thumbs and growing increasingly resentful to the CAF.

I can't describe how much I hate this sort of BS. I'd much rather go home and not collect that day's salary than to waste it doing nothing productive. When my people don't have anything to do, I send them home. If they chronically don't have anything to do, the failure is mine and the organization's, not theirs.

 

[Booter]

No one 'tells' them, they expect to experience what they see in the media. And they should be able to get the toughest kind of training, of course, because we need them to be able to handle the toughest situations in combat.

The fact that the CAF, based on recent conversations with serving members, continually fails to do this to the point that people leave because they are bored/ unchallenged is an appalling failure on various levels.

I know what I was told in the recruiting process twice. I also know what the commercials for recruiting look like, they aren’t playing cards hiding from their leaders in them,

 

[Jarnhamar]

Honestly, I don't think "people not joining" is the problem. Or at least it's not "people not wanting to join". But the application process takes an entire year to get in if you're lucky.

Our problem isn't getting people interested in the CAF; it's actually getting them enrolled, and then keeping them once they are.

Couldn't agree more about the application process.

Eh, that hasn't been my experience. People aren't shocked about having to be physically fit / active. Hell, the FORCE test is simple enough that it's hard to argue that we actually expect them to be physically fit / active. What they might be legitimately shocked / annoyed at is that they're forced to do some useless PSP-led bottom-common-denominator group PT, rather than allowing them time to work on achieving their own personal fitness goals.

Lots of students showing up for course who aren't physically fit or prepared for marching, running, marching with rucksacks. Then it's a quick left turn to the MIR to get no rucking/no marching chits.

I don't think people are shocked that they're not just left alone after joining. They're frustrated that they're getting in, and then expected to sit around on PAT platoon doing nothing all day because there's a 14 month backlog to get them on their occupational training.

I'm refering to comments I see on reddit where members pass their training then getting upset for being tasked away for summer training, or sent on exercises etc..

I'd rather they be wasting time playing video games because they like playing video games than wasting time sitting around twiddling their thumbs and growing increasingly resentful to the CAF.

This might be a hard sell for tax payers.

Also a major complaint I've seen from section commanders is that they don't have enough time to do their own training and mentoring. I've seen support trades argue they should be left alone from all the parades and stuff so they can get their actual jobs done (maintenance and such) because they're swamped. I could fill a month with training easily.

I would posit that if we were actually putting the needs of the institution above, well, anything, then we'd be doing more to keep people, as retention is the most serious ongoing crisis the CAF has.

Quite the tight rope to walk.

 

[TacticalTea]

I'm refering to comments I see on reddit where members pass their training then getting upset for being tasked away for summer training, or sent on exercises etc..

I don't think Reddit is a good barometer of general opinion and attitude. It's much more of an echochamber for a certain political demographic.

Just compare the average top comment with the general sentiment on here, there's often a vast difference.

Also a major complaint I've seen from section commanders is that they don't have enough time to do their own training and mentoring. I've seen support trades argue they should be left alone from all the parades and stuff so they can get their actual jobs done (maintenance and such) because they're swamped. I could fill a month with training easily.

That's a very interesting point. On ship, you'll often hear the MarTechs (for the retirees, that's the trade that replaces all the technical trades, like hull tech, ET, stoker) complaining that they're always the ones staying late cause they have so much to do while the Bosuns sit in the JRs and the NavComms hide behind their ''Encrypting, Entry prohibited'' door sign.

Sending people home is not my preferred situation, just what I'd do in the absence of things to do. But I think there's a LOT of training that can be done for Bosuns especially (Small arms and small boats are good examples), but you need to direct the resources towards that.

 

[btrudy]

I agree. As I've alluded to, I think there's still a large amount of Gen Z's that are active, switched on, and driven individuals, looking for a challenge. No reason we can't convince those kids to get in.

I find a majority of them are; our problem is we don't really offer meaningful, quite a lot of them are active, switched on, and looking for a challenging, meaningful, intellectually stimulating work. The problem being that to a large degree we don't actually offer challenging, meaningful, intellectually stimulating work.

This might be a hard sell for tax payers.

I don't think the tax payers are micromanaging whether or the privates who are doing nothing all day are doing nothing all day in some office or in their barracks room.

Also a major complaint I've seen from section commanders is that they don't have enough time to do their own training and mentoring. I've seen support trades argue they should be left alone from all the parades and stuff so they can get their actual jobs done (maintenance and such) because they're swamped. I could fill a month with training easily.

I'd be a big fan of getting rid of parades so that we can instead focus on doing our actual jobs.

I don't think Reddit is a good barometer of general opinion and attitude. It's much more of an echochamber for a certain political demographic.

Just compare the average top comment with the general sentiment on here, there's often a vast difference.

For what it's worth, the sentiment I see there seems like it more closely closely tracks with the actual sentiments of junior personnel than here does. Wanna find out what Lts and Cpls are thinking? Ask reddit; wanna find out what WOs and LCols are thinking? Ask here.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I don't think the tax payers are micromanaging whether or the privates who are doing nothing all day are doing nothing all day in some office or in their barracks room.

A slow news day could fix that.

Soldiers paid to play video games
While sexual misconduct continues to rip through the Canadian Forces, senior leadership sends soldiers home to play video games instead of conducting much needed ethical training.

These ultra violent videogames, where the protagonist is often invading other countries with assault rifles, are breeding grounds for white supremacist groups looking to recruit young and impressionable youth.


I'm being facetious of course but I wouldn't be surprised one bit by something like this.

 

[Grimey]

Training always did have unlockable things. "If you achieve X, you get to leave barracks this Saturday."

“You’ll get to go the Green and Gold if you pass your saluting test.”

 

[Brad Sallows]

Today's recruits are unlikely to be better than yesterday's. But they are likely to have led much more comfortable home lives growing up.

 

[TacticalTea]

Today's recruits are unlikely to be better than yesterday's. But they are likely to have led much more comfortable home lives growing up.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The thing about old folks disconnected from how young people experience things differently is that young folks are equally disconnected from how old people experienced things differently.

What's the same across time is that people whine about the way things are; what's different across time is the way things are.

 

[lenaitch]

Every preceding generation has probably whined disparagingly about the ones that followed. My brother spent his career in the hospitality industry and, at one point about 25 years ago (so, pre-dating the current entry workforce cohort) oversaw a chain of restaurants in the GTA. What drove managers nuts was the unreliability of the staff. So long as rent and groceries were covered, if a quick cheap vacation, concert or some other immediate gratification came up, they simply didn't show and never seen again. The money wasn't good enough for any kind of loyalty and they knew they could get same job some place else. I'm sure that was, and perhaps still is, reflective of a downtown urban youth demographic. It is unfair and unrealistic to paint an entire swath with the same brush, but they are a large and growing segment.

I agree that the demographic number show that the applicant pool is much smaller than previous cycles, so it's a 'seeker's market'. From outside looking in, law enforcement doesn't seem to have a significant turn-over rate. The money is good and I suppose once you get into a family and mortgage you tend to be more stable.

I have noticed that younger members (granted, a relative statement) tend to be less deferential to authority, which reflects a general social attitude, but I find it interesting that they get quite pissy when others don't respect their authority. I think in ye olden days, we often exercised our authority in a more nuanced manner.

Everyone wants to be consulted, and respected. It seems everyone expects their opinion and viewpoint to be acknowledged. Consultive leadership might be okay on a normal day-to-day basis when there is little at stake except the task at hand. It can't work in an operational setting when the poo hits the fan. The challenge is to create a workforce that understands the difference and can make the shift. It's not deferring to authority as much as it is understand roles, responsibilities and accountabilities. I've seen done well and I've seen done very poorly and I can only imagine in the military the potential stakes are that much higher. Good leadership also requires good followership.

 

[dimsum]

For what it's worth, the sentiment I see there seems like it more closely closely tracks with the actual sentiments of junior personnel than here does. Wanna find out what Lts and Cpls are thinking? Ask reddit; wanna find out what WOs and LCols are thinking? Ask here.

Bingo.

 

[btrudy]

I have noticed that younger members (granted, a relative statement) tend to be less deferential to authority, which reflects a general social attitude, but I find it interesting that they get quite pissy when others don't respect their authority. I think in ye olden days, we often exercised our authority in a more nuanced manner.

Everyone wants to be consulted, and respected. It seems everyone expects their opinion and viewpoint to be acknowledged. Consultive leadership might be okay on a normal day-to-day basis when there is little at stake except the task at hand. It can't work in an operational setting when the poo hits the fan. The challenge is to create a workforce that understands the difference and can make the shift. It's not deferring to authority as much as it is understand roles, responsibilities and accountabilities. I've seen done well and I've seen done very poorly and I can only imagine in the military the potential stakes are that much higher. Good leadership also requires good followership.

Let's face it, it's always been important to build a team that functions well, and follows your orders because they trust in your competence when giving said, orders. Relying on authority only is a good way to get people to hesitate at critical moments, or maybe even just get the ole Neidermeyer. Not only that, but it's also pretty important that they're likewise involved enough in the process that they can understand why you'd issue said orders, since if you take a bullet to the chest one of them's going to have to fill in for you.

The consultative leadership model, when used in training and non-operational situations, can be very effective in building that trust and expertise.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Nothing wrong with consultation as long as everyone remembers that not everyone should be consulted on everything all of the time.

 

[mariomike]

Consultive leadership might be okay on a normal day-to-day basis when there is little at stake except the task at hand. It can't work in an operational setting when the poo hits the fan.

Thankfully, on 9-1-1 operations, the only "consultation" was with your partner over which TV show to watch, while resting between the tones going off.

I think probationary employees used to be more "moldable". Especially under the watchful eyes of the '46ers". Post-war era vets who valued loyalty to the organization.

Candidates were younger, less educated, with less "life experience" than in more recent years.

 

[MilEME09]

Looks like the news finally picked this up

Military members urged to contact Habitat for Humanity amid housing crisis

An email encouraging members of the Canadian Armed Forces to consider contacting Habitat for Humanity if they can't find affordable housing is casting a spotlight on a growing challenge facing many military personnel and their families.

www.ctvnews.ca

 

[OldSolduer]

Nothing wrong with consultation as long as everyone remembers that not everyone should be consulted on everything all of the time.

Correct. Tactical situations are not a good place to discuss and consult on COAs.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Looks like the news finally picked this up

Military members urged to contact Habitat for Humanity amid housing crisis

An email encouraging members of the Canadian Armed Forces to consider contacting Habitat for Humanity if they can't find affordable housing is casting a spotlight on a growing challenge facing many military personnel and their families.

www.ctvnews.ca

CDS be like....