Justin Trudeau hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Kirkhill]

Amid all the videos of Russian tanks being destroyed and talk of Bayraktars, Javelins and NLAWs there has been occasional reference to Ukrainian artillery and its role in eliminating columns of vehicles. But when looking at the videos and images it has been remarkable to me how little evidence there is of "misses" by the artillery, how few shell holes there are in the engagement area.

Apparently the Ukrainians have their own indigenous laser guided 152mm artillery shells. And may have 122mm shells as well. Laser designators are available for ground units and UAVs.

One Shot, One Kill: Ukrainian Gunners Fire Laser-Guided Shells At Russian Vehicles

It’s not hard to find dramatic videos depicting direct hits by Ukrainian artillery on Russian vehicles. They hint at Ukraine’s integration and deployment of two key technologies—laser-guided artillery shells and laser-equipped drones.

www.forbes.com

 

[Good2Golf]

And probably cost significantly less than an Excalibur round…

 

[KevinB]

Talking to a few people, it seems the Russian Active protection systems cannot recognize a top attack munition as a threat so they aren't engaging. Meaning weapons like Javelin are scoring kills left, right and center.

APS is a misnomer for Russian tanks. It is active in terms of a dazzler type emitter, but all it does is attempt to confuse a seeker head.
So they can confuse a direct laser guided munition, but that’s it.
Javelin isn’t that type of munition…
The Russian APS is effectively two generations behind the threat.

Weather also is a big factor, it's still muddy as heck in Ukraine so they are limited to roads, easy pickings for Ukraine.

Agreed

Third factor is piss poor training, recent videos show when hit by artillery, they are abandoning their vehicles and scattering, and Ukrainian forces are all to happy to make sure there is no vehicle to return to.

 

[Kirkhill]

АТ «Укроборонпром» — ми робимо Україну сильною!

Стратегічний виробник озброєння та військової техніки в Україні.

ukroboronprom.com.ua

Kvitnik-E
Guided artillery shell
The Kvitnik guided artillery projectile is a high-precision high-precision fragmentation munition with a laser semi-active homing head (type 9E421)


Karasuk
Guided artillery shell
High-precision artillery shell with laser semi-active homing 122 mm caliber "Karasuk" is a sample of "smart weapon", which provides the maximum probability of destruction of the target with the first shot at a range of up to 12 km


Other indigenous Ukrainian PGMs

Precision guided weapons, missile and artillery systems

Precision guided weapons

spetstechnoexport.com

Betting that Ukrain is looking for NATO weapons because the have eaten up their stocks and the Russians have destroyed their production facilities.

 

[Kirkhill]

APS is a misnomer for Russian tanks. It is active in terms of a dazzler type emitter, but all it does is attempt to confuse a seeker head.
So they can confuse a direct laser guided munition, but that’s it.

So that would explain the occasional "miss" by Ukraine's LGMs. The Russian dazzlers work sometimes.

 

[KevinB]

So that would explain the occasional "miss" by Ukraine's LGMs. The Russian dazzlers work sometimes.

I’m not really familiar with those, but anything using a Direct ‘In Band’ TDL would be affected, as well as some LRF’s.
I’d love to do a deep dive into the how and why if things, but aspects of that are still classified.

What isn’t classified is that Javelin is effectively a smaller version of the MMW Hellfire and Maverick and isn’t bothered one lick by laser dazzling spam. If you lock it, it dies.

 

[Kirkhill]

Speaking of MMW munitions - an idea ahead of its time killed on account of expense and the fall of the USSR (Peace Dividend).


81mm. Same HEAT band as the CG84 and the AT4 but top attack. Similar to the larger 120mm Strix.

Anti-tank with mortar, British Merlin 81mm anti-tank mortar shell​

2022-04-12 23:31 HKT

In the 1980s, Europe was shrouded by war clouds. In the face of the huge Soviet steel torrent, NATO worked hard to develop anti-tank equipment and corresponding tactics, but it seemed impossible to be foolproof in the face of numbers. How about it without using nuclear weapons? Can the anti-tank capabilities of combat units at all levels be cheaply improved? The British thought of a good way to use cheap mortars to perform anti-tank operations. For this purpose, they deliberately developed 81mm Merlin precision-guided anti-tank mortar shells.

The Merlin shells are equipment used with the L-16 81mm mortar. The L-16 is a British equipment developed in the 1960s. It replaces the old 3-inch mortar and is widely used in grassroots land combat units. As a fire support weapon, each battalion is generally equipped with 6 to 8 guns, and each mortar has a three-man artillery group. The artillery weighs 35.6 kg and has a maximum range of 5650 meters.

In terms of the density of L-16 equipment, if it is given a reliable anti-tank capability, it will bring a qualitative improvement to the combat capability of the entire army. It is actually very easy to simply install the armor-piercing warhead for the ammunition. The difficult part is how to make the shells hit the moving tank. Fortunately, advances in electronic technology at that time made it possible to miniaturize many precision equipment.
The development of Merlin shells was from 1981 to 1989. Although we already have a variety of similar guided shells in service today, they were still new in that era and it was not easy to develop them.

The Merlin shell is 900 mm long, which is much longer than ordinary 81 mm shells. It looks like a small missile with a range of 1.5 to 4 kilometers. The armor-piercing warhead can penetrate 360 mm homogeneous steel armor. The weak top armor is sufficient.

The shell has a miniature millimeter-wave radar, which is activated when the shell enters the stage of diving and falling. At first it searches a range of 300×300 meters. At this stage, it searches for a moving target. If it is not found, it will switch to the second scene mode. When the shells fall further, the radar will search an area of 100×100 meters and analyze possible stationary targets.

No matter at which stage the target is found, the projectile can simply adjust its trajectory by adjusting the aerodynamic control surface that pops up after launch. It is unrealistic to kill a tank with one projectile. The designer said that it takes 2 to destroy a tank. ~3 shells. Not only that, because Merlin ammunition has unique ballistic characteristics and different combat needs, the gun crew will be equipped with a portable computer to calculate shooting data, so that the shells fly to the tank at the best angle.

The development direction of the Merlin precision-guided anti-tank mortar shell is undoubtedly correct. The service of many types of shells of this type can prove it, but the relevant equipment must be reduced and integrated into an 81mm shell even today. For this technical challenge, everyone still prefers larger 120mm projectiles, such as Sweden's 120mm guided projectiles.

It is said that the British officially entered service with the Merlin shells in 1993. In addition, Australia also has a strong interest in this shell. However, the number of Merlin shells seems to be very small. On the one hand, it is because the Soviet army, the biggest opponent, disappeared. On the other hand, this type of shell is too expensive and economically uneconomical. Later, Britain planned to expand the Merlin shell to 120 mm caliber.

 

[Kirkhill]

Rumours and rumours and rumours.....

Nato weakness has left the gates open for a chemical attack

If the West no longer has the courage to police the rules-based order, war in Ukraine will mark a terrible turning point

www.telegraph.co.uk

But if the attack is genuine and there is no response to yet another red line crossed then the future is back to the past. Alliances are degraded and are only as good as your own defences. Defence, like charity, begins at home. You can't rely on others to do what you won't do yourself.

 

[AmmoTech90]

APS is a misnomer for Russian tanks. It is active in terms of a dazzler type emitter, but all it does is attempt to confuse a seeker head.
So they can confuse a direct laser guided munition, but that’s it.
Javelin isn’t that type of munition…
The Russian APS is effectively two generations behind the threat.


Agreed

Shtora is also designed to spoof the firing post 9f SACLOS missiles by providing alternative missile beacons. Of course your beacon has to emit in the same frequency at the same rate as Shtora for your firing post care. There are relatively few LBR ATGMs made by the west kicking around; SKIF, older Hellfire, Maverick- add in Starstreak. The Russians like them, Kornet, Chrysanthemum, some of air launched stuff- oh, and Shershen from Belarus.
As Kevin said radar, radio, eo/ir homing doesn't care about things like Shtora. A lot don't care about flares. A DIRCM might mess with an EO/IR, but they seem to be restricted to AC (for now). The other thing about systems like Shtora is they take control from the humans on the turret to bring the CM on its target. I wonder if a lot of crews turn it off because they don't want their turrets slewing all over the place.

 

[McG]

АТ «Укроборонпром» — ми робимо Україну сильною!

Стратегічний виробник озброєння та військової техніки в Україні.

ukroboronprom.com.ua

View attachment 70036
Kvitnik-E
Guided artillery shell
The Kvitnik guided artillery projectile is a high-precision high-precision fragmentation munition with a laser semi-active homing head (type 9E421)

View attachment 70037
Karasuk
Guided artillery shell
High-precision artillery shell with laser semi-active homing 122 mm caliber "Karasuk" is a sample of "smart weapon", which provides the maximum probability of destruction of the target with the first shot at a range of up to 12 km


Other indigenous Ukrainian PGMs

Precision guided weapons, missile and artillery systems

Precision guided weapons

spetstechnoexport.com

Betting that Ukrain is looking for NATO weapons because the have eaten up their stocks and the Russians have destroyed their production facilities.

So they are M712 Copperhead for soviet caliber howitzers?

 

[Kirkhill]

So they are M712 Copperhead for soviet caliber howitzers?

Seems to be something like that.

 

[Quirky]

But if the attack is genuine and there is no response to yet another red line crossed then the future is back to the past. Alliances are degraded and are only as good as your own defences. Defence, like charity, begins at home. You can't rely on others to do what you won't do yourself.

This is why virtue signaling and convening Level 10 experts in Canada need a serious ass whopping for a wake up call.

 

[MilEME09]

This is why virtue signaling and convening Level 10 experts in Canada need a serious ass whopping for a wake up call.

I'm starting to wonder what if anything would make our leaders wake up. We haven't seen any serious sanctions in over a week

 

[markppcli]

Talking to a few people, it seems the Russian Active protection systems cannot recognize a top attack munition as a threat so they aren't engaging. Meaning weapons like Javelin are scoring kills left, right and center.

Weather also is a big factor, it's still muddy as heck in Ukraine so they are limited to roads, easy pickings for Ukraine.

Third factor is piss poor training, recent videos show when hit by artillery, they are abandoning their vehicles and scattering, and Ukrainian forces are all to happy to make sure there is no vehicle to return to.

Seems more likely the APS isn’t fitted

 

[OldSolduer]

I'm starting to wonder what if anything would make our leaders wake up. We haven't seen any serious sanctions in over a week

North America and in particular Canada has never experienced an enemy threat that could wipe us out. That is what it will take. Our reliance on the USA must be getting old with the Yanks

 

[suffolkowner]

Easy question to answer.
NATO tanks (Abrams, Leo and Challenger current variants) have 1) better armor (composite and extremely dense materials), 2) Insensitivity munitions, so with a significant impact they don’t detonate (unlike the T series turret launching munitions) 3) Have venting ammo storage so even a ammo detonation of the ammo rack won’t K kill the tank
4) Better VAS and FCS to allow targets to be viewed and selected at longer ranges.

Is not Trophy really good? Wikipedia says so lol

The other thing about systems like Shtora is they take control from the humans on the turret to bring the CM on its target. I wonder if a lot of crews turn it off because they don't want their turrets slewing all over the place.

Thats what I thought too but again that would only be true for laser designated?

 

[AmmoTech90]

Is not Trophy really good? Wikipedia says so lol

Thats what I thought too but again that would only be true for laser designated?

Trophy is an hard kill APS so not comparable to Shtora, more equivalent to Arena (very limited use), Drozd (obsolete), and Afghanit (T14 only).

Yeah, you need something to cue the system to react and that's normally a laser hitting the target. You can see some videos where the SKIF gunner is aiming off the target until the last minute, probably to avoid activating a LWS.

 

[Kirkhill]

Rob Huebert on Chrystia Freeland's budget speech

Rob Huebert: Did Chrystia Freeland just commit Canada to Russian regime change?

The Deputy Prime Minister says Vladimir Putin must be 'vanquished'

nationalpost.com

The entire final section of her speech — pages 5-6 if you are old school and print it out — is dedicated to the impact of the Russian attack on Ukraine. She begins with the observation that “The world we woke up to on February 24 was different from the one that had existed when we turned off the lights the night before.” Then she goes on to to her most powerful statement of the speech:

“Putin’s assault has been so vicious that we all now understand that the world’s democracies — including our own — can be safe only once the Russian tyrant and his armies are entirely vanquished.”

We need to put this in context. This is an official statement of the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance in an official speech to Parliament outlining the core policy and spendings of the government. This is not some innocuous musing of a government official responding to the terrible death and destruction that has been unleashed on the Ukrainian people. This is the second-most powerful person in the Canadian government very publicly calling for the vanquishing of Russian President Vladimir Putin a.k.a. “the Russian tyrant.”

When does Chrystia kick Justin upstairs?

 

[Good2Golf]

…and yet the budget bump to DND won’t likely even cover Inflation…

 

[Booter]

A tyrant that needs vanquishing!

We’ll hold the coats!