Author Topic: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS  (Read 595605 times)

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Offline Underway

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2100 on: April 18, 2020, 21:18:26 »
Nope the Kingstons will continue in the North doing hydro-graphic work.

Super important.  It's probably the biggest contribution to SAR that the RCN can do.  Prevent the SAR incident before it happens.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2101 on: April 21, 2020, 03:03:03 »
Agreed it's important work, but one that can also be done by CCG and PW/CHS. It was neat to do a old school hydrographic survey of a cove west of Coppermine and then a year later to see the Chart insert for that work.

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2102 on: April 21, 2020, 08:34:24 »
Agreed it's important work, but one that can also be done by CCG and PW/CHS. It was neat to do a old school hydrographic survey of a cove west of Coppermine and then a year later to see the Chart insert for that work.

It can be done but it won't be at least not on a large scale, at least not until the CCG gets its act together and revitalizes its fleet. Even so its such a large task there's room for CCG and RCN participation. Now if we really cared we would build several purpose built hydrographic ships just for the Arctic and get the job done faster.
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Offline YZT580

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2103 on: April 21, 2020, 09:40:06 »
Now if we really cared we would build several purpose built hydrographic ships just for the Arctic and get the job done faster.
   Faster?  Not likely!  How many years do you think it would take to get the contract proposal out, bid on, selected, appealed, re-bid etd.  Seaspan would insist it was a civilian requirement hence theirs, Davies would say it needs an ice-strengthened hull so theirs, Irving would profer the AOP as being suitable  already designed and their purview and finally Heddle would claim it belonged in the new category and therefore open-bid.  Same old

Offline lenaitch

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2104 on: April 21, 2020, 10:10:54 »
Is not arctic hydrographic surveying needed to support our UN claim for high arctic territory?  This, as well as the need to develop extensive charting which is sorely lacking in many areas.

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2105 on: April 21, 2020, 10:47:53 »
   Faster?  Not likely!  How many years do you think it would take to get the contract proposal out, bid on, selected, appealed, re-bid etd.  Seaspan would insist it was a civilian requirement hence theirs, Davies would say it needs an ice-strengthened hull so theirs, Irving would profer the AOP as being suitable  already designed and their purview and finally Heddle would claim it belonged in the new category and therefore open-bid.  Same old

Just get it built offshore lol
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

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Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2106 on: April 21, 2020, 10:51:35 »
Is not arctic hydrographic surveying needed to support our UN claim for high arctic territory?  This, as well as the need to develop extensive charting which is sorely lacking in many areas.

Obviously yes, worse case scenario is a cruise ship with a couple thousand passengers and crew hitting a shoal in the NW passage. A smaller pocket cruise ship did the same a few years ago, fortunately it didn't sink. A few years ago I was part of an exercise not too far from Iqaluit where we practiced something similar, lots of challenges.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

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Offline Colin P

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2107 on: April 21, 2020, 12:52:41 »
Is not arctic hydrographic surveying needed to support our UN claim for high arctic territory?  This, as well as the need to develop extensive charting which is sorely lacking in many areas.

Years ago, when a Canadian and US icebreaker trying to reach the pole, the US icebreaker lost a prop blade. A Russian icebreaker filming a TV special at the pole assisted them in getting out of the ice. The Canadian Captain went aboard the Russian ship to discuss how the escort should work. He noticed that the Russian charts of the Canadian Arctic were far more detailed than the Canadian ones. I wonder how they got that information.....

It was interesting to work up there and see the chart mostly blank of depths, with the occasional line of soundings, one line ending at a Pingo called the "Admirals finger" apparently he broke one when they hit it. In the Pearkes with just the Mate and myself on the bridge at around 2am steaming along, we saw the depth changing fast, by the time we stopped the ship, we had 2m under the keel from a previous 60m on a likley uncharted Pingo.

Offline Fred Herriot

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2108 on: April 21, 2020, 17:02:37 »
When it comes to building special or vital requirements, wouldn't it be just easier for the government to own its own construction slip?  Say Port Weller, Port Maitland, Port Colborne or Saint John?  Crew it with military and civilian engineers that wouldn't have to worry about losing jobs or being laid off due to lost contract bids because they were shifted from the construction yards to the FMFs whenever required?
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Offline LoboCanada

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2109 on: April 21, 2020, 20:46:42 »
When it comes to building special or vital requirements, wouldn't it be just easier for the government to own its own construction slip?  Say Port Weller, Port Maitland, Port Colborne or Saint John?  Crew it with military and civilian engineers that wouldn't have to worry about losing jobs or being laid off due to lost contract bids because they were shifted from the construction yards to the FMFs whenever required?

This is what NSPS should've been. Own a portion of 1 or 2 yards (each with different specializations, or just generalize) by way the french and DCNS' partnership. Then contract out to any other Canadian yard for work the other two are too busy to take or for one-off classes. The purpose of the strategy is that long-term orders end the boom/bust cycle. At least if we owned 25% of Seaspan or whoever, we'd be partially paying ourselves, and show our commitment to the industry by 'buying (some of) the farm'.

Offline Baz

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2110 on: April 22, 2020, 07:17:48 »
At the risk of seeming flippant, how is a mix if civilian and military engineers working at ADM(Mat)?  I guess the answer to that is dependent on how you think ADN(Mat) is doing?

Offline Underway

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2111 on: April 23, 2020, 17:09:25 »
At the risk of seeming flippant, how is a mix if civilian and military engineers working at ADM(Mat)?  I guess the answer to that is dependent on how you think ADN(Mat) is doing?

It depends heavily on where the project is in its lifecycle.  AOPS vs JSS vs CSC.  Where I work we're the customer so our main job is to ensure that requirements
(after contract being signed) are being met as best we can from an engineering perspective.  Internally it works great as the civilians rely upon the military folks to explain why things are done in certain ways and the civilians provide PM expertise and continuity. The issues come when the budget meets the contractor's abilities which then meets the requirements.  The main friction point is when you leave ADM(Mat) to the vendor, it's not internal for the most part IMHO.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2112 on: May 28, 2020, 16:24:30 »
Sounds promising for the type of stuff the AOP's may do:

In the sensor vanguard
Essentially a laser-based navigational aid, LADAR (Laser Detection and Ranging) combines long-distance object detection with high-accuracy measurement, giving users a full 2D/3D/4D (3D plus time) perspective for optimal maritime awareness. The laser pulse scans a specific area or target with over 100 readings per second. Its water-penetrating capabilities enable very high-resolution detection of objects in the surface layer up to approximately one nautical mile distant and up to 10 meters deep in ideal conditions. “Objects” can be anything from a person, floating container, icebergs, whales, or small craft to environmental factors such as waves or pollution.

https://www.marinelink.com/news/ladar-laser-sensor-technology-maritime-478858?utm_source=MR-ENews-Weekdays-2020-05-28&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=MR-ENews

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2113 on: May 28, 2020, 16:54:28 »
Sounds promising for the type of stuff the AOP's may do:

In the sensor vanguard
Essentially a laser-based navigational aid, LADAR (Laser Detection and Ranging) combines long-distance object detection with high-accuracy measurement, giving users a full 2D/3D/4D (3D plus time) perspective for optimal maritime awareness. The laser pulse scans a specific area or target with over 100 readings per second. Its water-penetrating capabilities enable very high-resolution detection of objects in the surface layer up to approximately one nautical mile distant and up to 10 meters deep in ideal conditions. “Objects” can be anything from a person, floating container, icebergs, whales, or small craft to environmental factors such as waves or pollution.

https://www.marinelink.com/news/ladar-laser-sensor-technology-maritime-478858?utm_source=MR-ENews-Weekdays-2020-05-28&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=MR-ENews

I wonder whether a version of this does or could exist to allow a submarine to "see" its immediate surroundings if operating close to objects such as the ocean floor or ice, etc.