Author Topic: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.  (Read 27146 times)

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Offline Mike Bobbitt

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #50 on: December 02, 2009, 09:39:35 »
It's always nice to just ask a question and get an answer. What's not as nice is to always have to answer the same question. :P

While I'm sure the specifics are different for everyone, I imagine the majority of us here have schedules much like yours. Popping in to post a quick 'please use the search' is just as nice for those folks as popping in to ask the question is for you.

If others have the time to do the legwork for you great; and I know we have some very helpful folks out there who can and will do that from time to time. If 'throwing a bone' by doing a quick search for someone is just as easy as posting a rebuke, then it's probably just as easy as posting the original question.

By the same logic, if you have time to frame up the question properly, wouldn't you have time to search?

All playing devil's advocate, as I know where you're coming from, and have been guilty of it myself from time to time. As you pointed out, there are SMEs here who wouldn't have to search at all... the answer is on the tip of their tongues. Still, this approach requires that these SMEs are generous enough with their time to post an accurate and complete answer to your question, which may take more time than a search in the end.

Each time they do this, they 'burn out' just a little bit more, until they realize that what they get from Army.ca is far less than what they're giving. At that point, we tend to lose them so I hate to lean too heavily on them like this. A better use of their time would be generating FAQs, editing wiki pages, etc. Then the response to many questions can simply be a link to a well documented response. Or even better, this approach may head off some questions completely.

That's why we've made the wiki editable by any registered user, and that's why many of the FAQs are started or maintained by regular users. (The Staff are here to police and organize, but are not here to be the SMEs on all things military.)

It all goes back to the same thing I've been saying: involvement

Without involvement by our membership, we quickly wither and die. I've seen a few new members use the site to work their way through the system and come back much later to 'repay their dues' by helping out. That's the perfect system in my mind.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2009, 10:04:47 »
...........  If someone feels the need to chime in  (obviously having time on their hands) to tell someone to use the search tool at least give the person a bone and post a few links to searches or something. (I find many members already do this, which is great)


On that point, what do you have to say to a reply like this "thankful newbie"? (This is a rather tame example, as opposed to some of the more rude ones that have been posted.)

Thanks  ____________ but those treats are really old and almost 100% of the link on there had been removed from Force.gc.ca

most of  the information are sooooo 2005.... I don't think I made any mistake asking my question here because it is related to the topic...

Anyway thank you very much for your attempt to help.

I know we have to keep the forum organized but there is no reason to be paranoiac about it. There is a fine line between straightforward  and rudeness


Cheers

Even when some people are give direction to a topic that covers their questions in detail, they get snotty because their question wasn't answered.  Look at this example of a guy who had to start a whole new topic on something that is covered in the topic directly below the one he started:

Army.ca Forums » The Recruiting Office » Recruiting


    Another education question.                      3 Replies                      Today at 07:06:31
Started by CBAtt                                            83 Views                        by FDO   
 
_____________________________________________________________________
    Education And Joining The CAF                   193 Replies                   Yesterday at 09:06:10
Started by SteelMag « 1 2 3 ... 13 »                16031 Views                 by Bruce Monkhouse 
 
 
That is what this is all about..........lazy people who want to be spoonfed eventually grating on the nerves of other site members.   This site is a good source of info, and even if that info may be dated, it is often still relevant.  I am sure at some time when this site was first created someone made a statement that the sky is blue.  Now that statement is over ten years old, but it still holds true.  Why must someone discard info here that wasn't created in the last 24 hours?  How often have we seen this?  Why must we put up with it?  We have seen people ask questions and then we have also seen people "with attitude" ask questions.  I would say that in the majority of cases the membership has been quite obliging to new members, until such time that some may show "attitude" and then we see the dogpiles.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2009, 10:49:48 »
Good popints George.

If someone starts getting an attitude tell them to STFU  ;D

Honestly if someone starts giving an attitude that's when i loose all interest in helping the bugger out and figure their on their own.
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline Larkvall

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2009, 12:09:37 »
I haven't been a member of this forum very long, but I am amazed at the volume of repeat questions. I am also bewildered why some people would choose to come here for answers instead of offical sources.

Example

Can I bring X to BMQ? Well if somebody on here says yes and you show up and it turns X is not allowed you are going to look like a fool trying to explain it.

Policies are always changing. Information on this site needs to be taken with a grain of salt and should not be considered a substitute for information from offical sources.

Offline matt101pwn

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2009, 12:34:26 »
I can understand someone asking the same question more then one time. But I don't, I ask once when I was new and now use the Search function. I have also made a new post after recieving feedback from many members. Yes, I am new, Yes I can be annoying sometimes, but I try my best to act in a responsible manner as best as possible. No, I am not going to like flip on you as some others do,Because I respect you all. You have more experience, and more knowledge then I do. So you deserve respect. Also, I have posted a new topic on Barack Obama sending 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan, I forgot who said I have made dumb posts, but I have learned, and I am starting to do research and clearly reading everything before I post. The link to my new topic is-- http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=90862.msg894738#msg894738

Please comment if you wish. Thanks again;Matt
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Offline Mike Bobbitt

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #55 on: December 02, 2009, 12:41:58 »
I can only assume that the volume of questions coming to us here indicates that the official information is either not available, or (more likely) those looking for it perceive that it's more easily obtained here. That is, many would rather anonymously post a question here and risk getting an inaccurate reply than identify themselves to 'the system' with a question, in case it's seen as silly.

Also, the official response may not include tips and tricks from those who have recently been there, done that. There's nothing like getting info from someone who was just through the meat grinder to feel comfortable about what lies ahead. A recruiter is not likely to provide that level of insight... I don't imagine it's their job to do so.

In a sense, people come here precisely because we're not the official source of information.

Offline Otis

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2009, 13:09:31 »
You would be correct Mr. Bobbitt, it isn't a Recruiters job to hold anyone's hand through the system.

We DO attempt to help when we can, and I have been known to 'push' files through for people who have made a good impression, and sometimes we will even give out hints and tips and tricks to aid in the process (i.e. HOW and WHAT to study for an aptitude test) but we don't always have the time or the motivation to do so.

Just like every other human being, we have our moods and tempo and issues, and the onus is on the applicant to get all of the info and do the research ... after all, they ARE the ones looking for a job.

ARMY.CA is an excellent resource for these people to ask the dumb questions and do some of the research ... even better than a lot of other resources because there ARE so many people fact-checking, looking over the shoulders of other posters and willing to call BS when they see it. I think this makes this site a much more reliable resource as long as people are willing to read entire threads and not just take out a point or two that they want to see ...

 :2c:

Otis
Since I've been on the new medication, it's become MUCH easier to ignore the Stupid people.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2009, 07:43:35 »
What can you do?  We have everyone complaining about how their questions aren't answered the way they would like.  How about this one?

Hi, my question is regarding the availability of the Infantry and Armored MoS. Iv searched the site, used the search feature and and unable to find a topic answering my question, so apology's if this has been answered,

After applying, my interests being Infantry, or Armored, I was told that the combat positions (Including Artillery, and Combat Eng) are at a surplus (Full) until April when they release the new information regarding jobs being hired for. I'm curious if anyone else has heard the same thing?

Artillery and Combat Eng are also interests and would be happy to choose one of them if it's available.

Thanks in advance for any information, much appreciated!

And you wonder ?
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2009, 11:09:00 »
Coyote - Post # 1 - "Canada needs Attack Helicopters"

Does anyone see why we get frustrated?

Anyone?

Bueller?


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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2009, 12:01:14 »
Coyote - Post # 1 - "Canada needs Attack Helicopters"

Does anyone see why we get frustrated?

Anyone?

Bueller?

That post was pure genius. What your problem with it ?

Offline Mike Bobbitt

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2009, 12:06:14 »
Actually the first and last posts are both good examples*. One of the problem, and the other of the solution. I think we have to resign ourselves to the fact we'll never stem the tide of repeat questions... it's something we'll just have to live with.

But we do seem to be getting better at handling these situations. I've seen a few senior members and Mentors jump in positively recently, and I think it's an upward trend. Here's hoping it is, and thanks to those who have taken the time to make it work that way.

* Sorry Danjanou... your post is funny... didn't mean to leave it out. ;)

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #61 on: December 03, 2009, 12:09:55 »
That post was pure genius. What your problem with it ?

Which part?  The part he copied from here? Or after he'd already posted it here?

Offline CallOfDuty

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #62 on: December 03, 2009, 12:28:08 »
  I was thinking about the issue, and had a bit of a realization here....Keep in mind guys who we're dealing with here for the most part.  One of the worlds most annoying type of person(no offence!),lol.............teenagers. :P

   Perhaps we expect too much common sense from a group of people who are infamous for not having any common sense, life experince, maturity, etc..etc?
  Just a thought.
   
 
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Offline dredre

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #63 on: December 03, 2009, 12:40:59 »
Which part?  The part he copied from here? Or after he'd already posted it here?

And also here:

http://www.armaholic.com/forums.php?m=posts&p=64397#64397

Edit: I just noticed that on this last link, there is a different profile name.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #64 on: December 03, 2009, 13:02:52 »
  I was thinking about the issue, and had a bit of a realization here....Keep in mind guys who we're dealing with here for the most part.  One of the worlds most annoying type of person(no offence!),lol.............teenagers. :P

   Perhaps we expect too much common sense from a group of people who are infamous for not having any common sense, life experince, maturity, etc..etc?
  Just a thought.

Some of these teenagers are in their Thirties and never left home.
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Offline CallOfDuty

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #65 on: December 03, 2009, 13:55:31 »
lol...real winners eh
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #66 on: December 03, 2009, 16:18:29 »
  I was thinking about the issue, and had a bit of a realization here....Keep in mind guys who we're dealing with here for the most part.  One of the worlds most annoying type of person(no offence!),lol.............teenagers. :P

   Perhaps we expect too much common sense from a group of people who are infamous for not having any common sense, life experince, maturity, etc..etc?
  Just a thought.

You mean that same group that produces the people who say we should teat them like adults based solely on the fact that they can legally drive, or vote, or smoke, or join the army.  How about the ones that smoke dope, and then act surprised that their conscious illegal actions have repercussions when they go to the Recruiting Centre?  And it's certainly not all of them, just the few, of whichever age-group, that manage to out themselves as less than mature, or less than diligent in helping themselves to the information here, before asking their own original question about pilots and eyesight, or infantry and education, or whether they get to choose their own personal weapon, or .... [insert favourite eye-roll topic here].  We just hope that each new poster tries to achieve the average level of common sense before adding another bad-width sucking simplistic repetitive question or suggestion to the forums.

And this type of topic is becoming another one of those subjects.

Offline MARS

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #67 on: December 03, 2009, 16:47:04 »
My two cents:

A good thread, which I think will periodically be revived as we continually get new members.  This issue is never going to disappear completely.

I think most of the issues could be solved by courteous and helpful suggestions to adapt, and in some cases, correct behaviour of junior members.  By behaviour, I mean the common issues of Poor Posting Protocol (P3)™ ;)  from our perspective.

So long as this site remains public, we will never completely stem this trend.  Nor do I think any of us actually believe we will.  However, we are equally as unlikely to reduce it to a level that fails to irritate some of us.  That is a function of our military bearing (for those with military experience).  We generally do not suffer fools gladly.  But I reiterate – it is a public site.  If we want to make it private, make it pay only.  I guarantee you that will sort out the vast majority of our issues.  We can hope that people who come here will have a certain set of values and maturity level – but we cannot “expect” it.  For goodness sake – it is the INTERNET.

People fear power - understandably so.  I don’t see much discord or angst when a regular member of this forum dog piles someone.  In fact, usually a Mod steps in, exercises the appropriate power and shuts it down.  I think the issue is when Mods dog pile.  By that I mean, when a Mod is posting in a non-moderator capacity.  It can be difficult for observers to separate the function, even when it is explicitly stated either in the post or in the tagline below it. Postings by Mods – even in non-mod capacities – carry a certain set of expectations.  No way around it.  Maybe their post wasn’t even an honest-to-goodness dog pile post, but owing to a lack of non-verbal and verbal cues, it potentially sets off the others and perhaps gives de-facto and implied permission.  The Mods have tremendous power – ultimately, the power to ban someone from this site.  That power, seemingly unchecked, causes people to get defensive, perhaps irrationally so, but that is, in my opinion, the result.

What we lack are the verbal and non-verbal cues that are critical to effective communication.  I don’t think technology currently exists to overcome that.  So, we the membership must adapt to that reality.  Seeing someone’s age, facial expression and hearing their tone of voice when they ask me “We have a Navy???” will determine the nature of my response.  A 10 year old will get a different response than the university student, who will get a different response than the new immigrant to Canada.  I have friends in civilian occupations – doctors, scientists, etc – that are the recipients of what must certainly sound like dumb questions from me.  They fill fascinating occupations that I couldn’t even begin to understand without the years of education and experience they possess.  The military is sometimes viewed the same way.  Perhaps even more so because we have the coolest toys, things that little boys dream about – tanks and ships and fighter jets and the like – things that most civilians only see in pictures.  It is incumbent on us to realize this and deal with it.

The lack of non-verbal and verbal cues is also an issue when someone writes “use the search function” or some variation.  Even adding the words “have you tried to” can come across as sarcastic and unhelpful.  I can say that phrase half a dozen different ways – in sarcastic, helpful, caustic, indifferent, inquisitive or exhausted tones.  Emoticons can help here, but are not always used in the manner they were originally intended – to add context.  Often they are used to reiterate a tone that was already clear in the statement that preceded them.   Internet communication requires effort on both the sender and the recipient.  Effort by the sender to phrase things properly, so as to remove as much ambiguity as possible and effort by the recipient to realize that their first impression of the response might not be the right one.  But effort requires just that – effort, and is measured in time and action, and not all of us, myself included, have the time or inclination to provide that effort every time we log on.  This is, in my view, a role for mentors as I explain below.

The “We are Family” thread has obvious and excellent advice to new members:

•   We can’t discuss that here, it is an Operational Security (OPSEC) issue
•   Your question is poorly worded, but I think you mean [this], and therefore your answer is [this]
•   Please don’t use MSN speak, it reflects poorly on the professional communications skills we prefer and encourage at Army.ca.  For now, the information you are looking for can be found [here].
•   Your answer can be found in [this] FAQ [here]
•   Your question has been asked before; you should start your reading with [this thread].
•   You can find answers to these questions using the [search page], try a search using [these terms]
•   The best person on the forums to answer your particular question is [this person], try contacting him by PM or wait a few days for him to find the thread
•   Sorry, but you can’t just join as a [sniper / JTF 2 / etc.], please start with the [Recruiting FAQ] and with [searches] on these terms ...

But wow – 7 of the 8 tips require “effort” on the part of us to direct the member to the correct info.  The real and accepted limitations on our time have been raised throughout this thread.

Another issue I see is an inability to simply ignore something.  Mods and mentors – and anyone else with correct info to add – should step in when incorrect or inaccurate info is posted.  But I don’t think most of the dog piles are a result of that.  They appear to be the result of stupid things being posted or being posted stupidly.  I think most of these things – like the helicopter thread - are ultimately harmless in the big picture.  Annoying, certainly.  But harmful to our goals here? I am not so sure.  If bandwidth is an issue, then delete the photos or the whole thread, send the guy a PM and briefly explain that.  If there is a danger of someone taking away bad info, lock the thread.  But if it just some user talking out of his a$$, well, it is a public forum – what did we expect?  We don’t have Mods who are paid to be here and might thus be expected to spend 8 hours a day “working” on the site.  And if we are too busy to police the thread, then we have to let some things be, some of the time.

I think a solution - I use that term loosely – is for the Mentors to step in.  Again, none of the issues raised in this thread appear to have much, if anything to do with gross and egregious violations of the site guidelines.  They are related to expected and desired protocols for this site.  Some of those protocols are part of the guidelines, but violating them does not, in my opinion, pose a grave danger to the success of this site.  As a mentor I have had a roughly 50% success rate in PMing some of our more notable members of late.  The tone of their PMs is amazingly different than of the public post which caused some sort of issue.  Not perfect tones, but different, in a good way.  Well, 50% is better than 0%.  I admit, I have been remiss in my mentor responsibilities of late – blame it on Staff College and pre-deployment preps.  But I reiterate that I think these issues are a perfect example of the Mentor function and what it was designed to accomplish.

Routine Orders for the past 4 months indicate an increase in new users of approximately 400 per month – sustained.  We receive around 100 000 unique visitors per month and sustain about 2000 active users each month. I don’t know how that membership stacks up against other comparable websites, regardless of whether they deal with military issues or not.  I do think they are statistics that represent a successful website on the whole.  In addition, I think – and I have no data to back this up – but it appears to me that our website has a very active and involved membership.  Perhaps more than most?  I dunno. What I am getting at it is that people feel a sense of attachment here that they may not feel to the other forums they are involved in. Which is perhaps why the issues that are raised in threads like this are such sensitive topics – because we care.

So, I think this website is and will continue to be a resounding success on the whole.  We continue to grow and we clearly remain relevant.  We can always do better, but to do so requires a constant effort that we simply cannot sustain all the time, which we realize and accept.  We appear to have reluctance to accept that, regardless of how often or prominently we post the terms of use, there will always be transgressions.  Simple Command thought process:  is this a problem?  If yes, is it my problem?  If not, then whose?  Let that person resolve it, be it a Mod or Mentor or SME.  We might do better to take a breath and ask ourselves if this is something that requires me to post a reply.  If it does, what is the most effective way to resolve the issue that concerns me?  Is my post really going to resolve the issue or am I posting simply to hear myself speak, and perhaps try to be funny?  Is my post going to encourage poor behaviour on the part of the rest of the membership – either because of my status or seniority or posting history?

Again, my two cents.  If you read this far, thanks for listening.

MARS

Edited for grammar and clarity
« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 20:27:12 by MARS »
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Offline CallOfDuty

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #68 on: December 03, 2009, 18:48:36 »
......very well thought out MARS, I agree with your thoughts.  +1
"I bought a box of animal crackers and it said do not eat if seal is broken.  I opened it, and sure enough...................."

Offline Greymatters

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #69 on: December 03, 2009, 21:48:08 »
Maybe as an additional reward for having MilPoints deducted, the member's next 5 posts cause a Guideline window to pop-up, which must be acknowledged to continue.


As a variation, a series of pop-ups ---

"Are you sure this says what you mean?" Clicking 'Yes' leads to,

"Did you spell check?" Clicking 'Yes' leads to,

"Is this likely to get you flamed in response?" Clicking 'Yes' leads to,

"So you're sure you don't mind if people think you're a dumbass?" Clicking 'Yes' leads to,

"OK, I tried to help you.....  :brickwall: "  and then the message posts   ;D

Thats actually not a bad idea - I think Windows Vista does the same thing, but on a permanenet basis...


Offline matt101pwn

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #70 on: December 04, 2009, 07:55:56 »
Being a Teenager myself, I'd like to put my two cents in. Personally, for myself I have never smoked,done drugs, or been drunk. The majority of teens do, but I like to think of myself as a mature adult. Everyone is welcome to their thoughts but I would just like to clear my name as a Teenager.

Thanks;Matt
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Lieutenant-Gen Sir Julian Byng

Offline Occam

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #71 on: December 04, 2009, 08:16:08 »
Being a Teenager myself, I'd like to put my two cents in. Personally, for myself I have never smoked,done drugs, or been drunk. The majority of teens do, but I like to think of myself as a mature adult. Everyone is welcome to their thoughts but I would just like to clear my name as a Teenager.

Thanks;Matt

Have you ever stepped on my lawn?   :orly:

aesop081

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #72 on: December 04, 2009, 10:38:10 »
Being a Teenager myself, I'd like to put my two cents in. Personally, for myself I have never smoked,done drugs, or been drunk. The majority of teens do, but I like to think of myself as a mature adult. Everyone is welcome to their thoughts but I would just like to clear my name as a Teenager.

Thanks;Matt

You dont smoke, drink or do drugs....good for you.
However :

Personally I beleive you should wait till grade 12, get involved in the Military Co-op at your school, if you like the Military lifestyle, Co-op will put you in the Primary reserves, which you can then go to college, which the  military can pay for, and continue the reserves. Once you've done college, depending on your doploma/certificate you could become an officer, meaning more pay, more respect. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

Matt

Another example of why dogpiles happen !

Offline gcclarke

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #73 on: December 04, 2009, 10:39:24 »
Being a Teenager myself, I'd like to put my two cents in. Personally, for myself I have never smoked,done drugs, or been drunk. The majority of teens do, but I like to think of myself as a mature adult. Everyone is welcome to their thoughts but I would just like to clear my name as a Teenager.

Thanks;Matt

Frankly, I don't really see there being any correlation between either refraining from or engaging in those activities you mentioned, and level of maturity. For the most part, it's your interactions with others that determine whether or not someone is "acting mature".

To steal wikipedia's definition:

Quote
Maturity is a psychological term used to indicate that a person responds to the circumstances or environment in an appropriate and adaptive manner. This response is generally learned rather than instinctual, and is not determined by one's age. Maturity also encompasses being aware of the correct time and place to behave and knowing when to act with appropriate emotion for the situation.

So, to the extent that someone can indulge to a level that it does not adversely affect their interactions with others, use of tobacco, alcohol, and some drugs is not in and of itself "inappropriate", depending upon the time and place when one chooses to do so, and in my not so humble opinion, does not indicate a necessary lack of maturity.

And before someone brings it up, yes I do believe that the use of illegal drugs as a member of the CF does certainly fail the "being aware of the correct time and place to behave and knowing when to act" portion of that definition. I don't think the same could always be said for all civilians.

To wit, in my humble opinion, the person who shows up drunk at his grandmother's funeral is acting much less mature, in my not so humble opinion, than the university student who smokes pot once a month on the weekend.
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.  Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘Press On’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
- Calvin Coolidge

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Re: On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.
« Reply #74 on: December 04, 2009, 11:16:58 »
Being mature is vastly overrated *

However, thinking before you type, and taking responsibility for your actions (including getting dog-piled) is not.


* I guess; it's not really my strong suit.