Author Topic: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]  (Read 71653 times)

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Offline murrdawg

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Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« on: October 15, 2009, 08:14:11 »
Interesting dilemma... I'd be curious to see what people's takes would be on it. I had a Major's inspection last week, pants were long (I thought they were the right size) but nobody said anything from the end of last year up until this inspection, and the Major said something to me about it. Then a week later, I find out that he said to my CoC that my dress and deportment were poor (something about poor drill) which, again, nobody has ever come up to me about. He wants me punished for it. Now, if I'm wrong, someone please correct me, but for something like that, don't they have to point it out, then give a period of time for me to improve it, then re-evaluate and if it's not fixed, then pass down the punishment?

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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2009, 09:25:39 »
Nope! When you went through BMQ you were told the proper way to wear your uniform. You also have access to CFP 265, the Dress manual. Chapter 6 has very clear pictures of how the pants are supposed to hang. No one should have to tell you you should be able to look it up and see for yourself. If you chose not to then its your butt in the sling. You are an adult and should not have to be told how to dress. The base Tailor is there to fix any problems you have with kit as far as alterations are concerned. And the best part is it's free!

Bottom line is you are responsible for you and your kit. There are no excuses!

http://halifax.mil.ca/N4MAT/BCOMD/english/bcpo/CF%20Manuals/CFP%20265%20Dress%20Manual.pdf
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Offline gcclarke

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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2009, 09:40:29 »
Interesting dilemma... I'd be curious to see what people's takes would be on it. I had a Major's inspection last week, pants were long (I thought they were the right size) but nobody said anything from the end of last year up until this inspection, and the Major said something to me about it. Then a week later, I find out that he said to my CoC that my dress and deportment were poor (something about poor drill) which, again, nobody has ever come up to me about. He wants me punished for it. Now, if I'm wrong, someone please correct me, but for something like that, don't they have to point it out, then give a period of time for me to improve it, then re-evaluate and if it's not fixed, then pass down the punishment?

For administrative action, to correct a deficiency in performance or conduct, one has to go through a series of remedial measures designed to correct the deficiency.

From DAOD 5019-4 Remedial Measures:

Quote
Remedial measures are part of the range of administrative actions that can be imposed in respect of a CF member and are intended to:

make the CF member aware of any conduct or performance deficiency;

assist the CF member in overcoming the deficiency; and

provide the CF member with time to correct their conduct or improve their performance.

Remedial measures initiated in respect of a CF member are, in increasing significance:

initial counselling (IC);

recorded warning (RW); and

counselling and probation (C&P).

From what you described, it appears to me that the Major has noted what he believes to be a deficiency, made you aware of this deficiency, and has instructed your superiors that he expects them to assist you in overcoming this deficiency. This may indeed be viewed as a punishment.

Now, should he, say, wish for you to be forced to release from the Forces, then indeed you would have to go through all the steps of the process, and be given ample opportunity to correct the deficiencies that he noted. I rather doubt that it will get to that.
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.  Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘Press On’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
- Calvin Coolidge

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2009, 09:43:55 »
Note that the writer is at MilCol; QR&O vol IV may be applicable in this case; the college has "The Code of College Conduct" which provides for pseudo-disciplinary measures: Loss of Cadet appointments; Restriction of privileges; or a Warning. Note that proceedings under the College Code of Conduct do not appear on an RDP and are not conducted under the Code of Servie Dsicipline.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2009, 09:45:36 »
I think what you might be referring to is found in DAOD 5019-4, Remedial Measures.

DAOD 5019-4

From my perspective...you do NOT want to go down that road.  Its formal and can be progressive and if  you think about it, your CoC will ALWAYS find something wrong if they want to (usually because you give them a reason to, IMO).  Also, I am not aware of any order, regulation or directive that says your CoC SHALL initiate formal actions IAW the DAOD.  Who would want to lock the CoC into this type of action for something as minor as pant legs??

More importantly, as stated, you SHOULD know the standards for dress, deportment and drill.  I didn't look at your profile, but you indicated you are past the BMQ point in your career.  Therefore, you ought to have known better.  The fact that your NCOs/CoC never picked up on it before is irrelevant to me, as 2 wrongs never make a right.

Back in the day, a few exrtras for having a poor turnout was the starting point for disciplinary actions, and rightfully so IMO.  Take whatever minor (and, hopefully *unofficial*) punishment your CoC gives you, sort your "3Ds" out and carry on.  Someone else will be along shortly with their shortcomings to take the spotlight off you most likely.

To sum up, be careful what you wish/ask for.  You just might get it.
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Offline Roy Harding

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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2009, 09:45:42 »
Fix your damned pants.

Stop whining.

Not necessarily in that order.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2009, 09:47:30 »
Bottom line is that you are responsible for your dress and deportment.
Guidance should come from your CoC....ie your section commander or Platoon Warrant Officer.

Failing that, ask questions about dress and deportment and drill.

There is only ONE WAY to improve your drill. PRACTICE under the supervision of a competent authority.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline ajp

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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2009, 10:17:04 »
I agree with EITS.  Having done my share of Official Disciplinary Paperwork - you don't want to go there for pants.  The more they put on paper...the more they have for future ref, and if they get enough you will be a civilian before you know it.  All this over pants... sort yourself out and get back to it.

Offline Retired FDO

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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2009, 10:29:39 »
Punisment comes in many forms. From advising on the deficiencies to formal charges. You have to narrow down what your definition of  "punishment" is. I would expect you will not have any questions on military dress and deportment when the punisment is done!

Suck it up buttercup your not in the Boy Scouts anymore!!
A Veteran-whether active duty, retired or Reserve- is someone who at one point in their life, wrote a blank cheque made payable to "The Country of Canada" for an amount of "up to and including my life"   Author Unknown

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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2009, 10:31:57 »
Having done my share of Official Disciplinary Paperwork - you don't want to go there for pants.

On the other hand, I know of one course that stood by their beds for inspection in highly shone combat boots, webbing, helmet and boxer shorts.  No pants.

The directing staff ripped into one candidate for a hair on his uniform, yanked it out (ouch), but found no other flaws...
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Offline ajp

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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2009, 11:44:13 »
I remember as an NCM having an inspection where our list included underwear to be placed in the butt pack.  The 8 ladies on the course all placed GString s in their pack....shortest inspection ever as the MCpl doing the inspection could not hold himself together after that.  He started in their room.  Hey--- they didn't specify what type of underwear....and the guys didn't follow the ladies lead on that one.

Offline murrdawg

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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2009, 15:42:52 »
Isn't it normally a case of they point it out, then you have to have it fixed for the next inspection, then if it's still not right, then the massive amount of remedial inspections?

Offline Roy Harding

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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2009, 15:49:30 »
Isn't it normally a case of they point it out, then you have to have it fixed for the next inspection, then if it's still not right, then the massive amount of remedial inspections?

What part of "fix your pants" and "stop whining" didn't you understand?

Don't you have better things to do than whine about a bad inspection?  Like, I don't know, CONCENTRATING on your field of study?

If you're going to make such tremendous mountains out of such little mole hills, you're in for one hell of a miserable career.

Get over it.  Your pants are too long (Barbara Streisand sings a nice song about this very subject).  Make them shorter.

The energy and time you've put into this thread would have (if properly directed) enabled you to have your whole wardrobe fixed properly.

Stop looking for silly things to ***** about - get on with your studies.
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Offline murrdawg

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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2009, 15:53:03 »
I'm asking about how the CF does the punishment thing, not whining about my own. I want to know how to apply it correctly to my subordinates.

Offline Roy Harding

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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2009, 15:57:10 »
I'm asking about how the CF does the punishment thing, not whining about my own. I want to know how to apply it correctly to my subordinates.

According to your profile, you are an OCDT still at RMC.

By the time you have subordinates, you will have figured it out (hopefully).  By the time you are CDS, you will have figured out the big picture, too (hopefully).

Right now, however, you just need to get your act together, concentrate on your studies, and toe the line when it comes to kit and drill.
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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2009, 16:01:03 »
I remember as an NCM having an inspection where our list included underwear to be placed in the butt pack.  The 8 ladies on the course all placed GString s in their pack....shortest inspection ever as the MCpl doing the inspection could not hold himself together after that.  He started in their room.  Hey--- they didn't specify what type of underwear....and the guys didn't follow the ladies lead on that one.

You don't want to know what we ladies placed in our top drawers in lieu of our toothbrushs on our QL5s ...

Also recall an inspection during basic trg in Cornwallis where we all formed up in our boots, rubber clumsey; green mil-issued swimsuits and berets. We all got nailed for not having nametags on the chest areas of our swimsuits (not that the guys on our course even had chest areas on their swimsuits ...  :-X).

Seems that this type of "morale" inspection is a common occurance on some courses ...
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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2009, 16:06:37 »
To answer the original question - there are administative measures - ie verbal and recorded warnings and counselling and probation.  They are administrative ways of correcting behaviour.  There are also disciplinary ones - ie NDA/QR&O violations, some of which are pretty broad sweeping.  If they wanted to go the administrative route, yeah, they should give you a verbal or recorded warning, however they don't have to.  They could just charge you or they could say you looked like a (add your own epithet) and you're getting extras.  If you want to be charged, I think something could be arranged - not hard to write up in this day of copy and paste.

Incidentally - you can receive both administrative correction AND disciplinary correction for the same thing if it's deemed to be heinous enough.

Suggestion - take you licks and get on with it and make sure you look better next time around.

Cheers.

MM

MM

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Offline Jungle

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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2009, 16:07:15 »
I'm asking about how the CF does the punishment thing, not whining about my own. I want to know how to apply it correctly to my subordinates.

The best way to learn is to go through the process... the day they issue you subordinates, they will also put a WO in charge of your education; pay attention to everything he says.
"I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind."
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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2009, 16:09:39 »
Isn't it normally a case of they point it out, then you have to have it fixed for the next inspection, then if it's still not right, then the massive amount of remedial inspections?

Technically, they have already taught you how to do drill (on BMQ!), and they've taught you how to properly care for/maintain/wear your uniforms too (and, as already stated - the 265 is avail to you) ...

Now, they are having to correct you for something you should already know and have already been taught.

That means an IC (an "Initial Counselling" - formerly known as "a Verbal Warning") could be applied. This is an Admin action (not a disciplinary action) - yet it is an Admin action that will remain on your file for the duration of your career. That means, next time you get picked up for something wrong with your uniform or drill could see you issued a "RW" (Recorded Warning - Strike 2), third time sees you being placed on C&P (Counselling and Probation - Strike 3) ... next step after that is release --- ADMIN action = Career long retention on your file ...

Disciplinary actions = Remedial Drill, Change Parade, Extras, etc etc ... but no retention on file for duration of your career ...

As someone already stated: Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

I personally would be fixing the pants forthwith, taking the extras - the Change Parade (or whatever) ... and carrying on with the job.
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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2009, 16:15:01 »
I swear someone in Ottawa keeps their job alive by changing how things are referred to - IC vs VW, etc.  Too bad said person doesn't always ensure promolgation to some of us folks locked away in school for a couple of years :D

BTW, my 5's did a formal RSM's inspection in Males: boxers, boots, dogtags and appropriate head dress and Females: same but with isolation gowns - he almost had the big one. 

MM
MM

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I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2009, 16:24:31 »
I swear someone in Ottawa keeps their job alive by changing how things are referred to - IC vs VW, etc.  Too bad said person doesn't always ensure promolgation to some of us folks locked away in school for a couple of years :D

BTW, my 5's did a formal RSM's inspection in Males: boxers, boots, dogtags and appropriate head dress and Females: same but with isolation gowns - he almost had the big one. 

MM

Having written up enough ICs, RWs and a few C&Ps in the past few years ... I`m getting used to the terminology now.  ;)

You should have seen the Comdt face during ours on our 5s ... again, the females were inspected first .... first room, first locker = BIG eyes; moves on to the 2nd locker = BIGGER eyes; moves to the 2nd room | 1st locker = BULGING eyes ...

Immediately beats hastey retreat from edifice and can been seen literally moving at 60km/hour while tripping over his feet accross the parking lot on the way back into the school ...

The guys on the course knew something was up when they could hear our course staff and the girls howling in the hallway of the shacks. It was a fine day --- and a very short inspection.
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Offline meni0n

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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2009, 16:46:08 »
Doesn`t the verbal stay on your file for a year and then  gets tossed into the garbage?

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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2009, 17:17:01 »
Doesn`t the verbal stay on your file for a year and then  gets tossed into the garbage?

A verbal is now an "IC" - actual "Official Admin Action" paperwork that is issued by the OC, signed and dated by the member etc and placed one one's file. There is an actual form to fill out for this "verbal". It serves as the "proof" that an IC (formerly known as a 'verbal') was 'officially' given for a "shortcoming in Area XXX" on date "XXX" --- and serves as the precusser to the "validity" of issuing of an RW should a file review upon another "incident" of same type of shortcoming occuring in members career.

It's not supposed to be removed.

One may sleep in one day and be issued an "IC" instead of being charged with AWOA for example ... two years later and the member sleeps in again & is thus AWOA again ... you're back to step 1 (the IC) if you've removed this from the member's file. Else you charge their butt - remembering of course that you can indeed do both - an ADMIN action does not preclude the ability to also take disciplinary action. But, if you want to move up the ADMIn steps ... the first step must be there and identifiable upon the member's file ... unless the shortcoming causing the Admin action is particularily heinous/grave ... then you can immediately go to RW or C&P if the CO deems it warranted/grave enough to do so.

ADMIN actions (which an IC is) are (supposed to be) retained for career.
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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2009, 17:26:59 »
So I guess with the new terminology came the new rules that it stays on your file forever? I remember when I got a verbal, once the time ran out the Sgt took it out of my pers file in front of me and threw it into the garbage.

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Re: Remedial Measures DAOD 4019-4 [merged]
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2009, 17:33:16 »
So I guess with the new terminology came the new rules that it stays on your file forever? I remember when I got a verbal, once the time ran out the Sgt took it out of my pers file in front of me and threw it into the garbage.

I could very well be wrong.

Perhaps it's that my pers have always managed to step on their dicks the 2nd time before a single year has passed ...  >:D

Yet, I had ICs done up for BFT and Xpress test failures too (as sayeth the DAOD) ... and I'm quite sure that should remain on the members' files ... for obvious reasons. That testing is only done once per year ... how would you  move them up the Admin ladder if the IC from the failure the year before is removed from their file and they fail it again the 2nd year? They ceratinly shouldn't be getting an "IC" year after year after year for the same failure/shortcoming.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 17:37:16 by ArmyVern »
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