Author Topic: So You Want to be an officer, eh!  (Read 156282 times)

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Online Blackadder1916

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2009, 02:33:19 »

. . .  I am getting frustrated, pissed off, etc. when I see so many lazy, self-centered, egos with humongous senses of entitlement come onto the site and use illiterate means to communicate that they want to become our future leaders. 

Thank you, thank you, thank you!  Great minds think alike . . . (I'll leave the second part of that saying to whomever wishes to apply it to me.)

Quote
...this isn't your average site and these aren't your average forums.

. . . I cringe when I think of how many potentially excellent members have been turned off of the military by the attitude . . .

But then, the CF shouldn't really be looking for "average" people, especially to be its leaders.  If someone is turned off a career in the CF by the (comparatively mild) upbraiding to follow the rules/customs of this site, then I would question how serious they were or how suitable.

-------------------------------------------------------------

However, a discussion of "officership" could be useful for those contemplating a commission (or what seems more likely from a number of recent threads - contemplating the subsidized education, certain specific exciting jobs or cool sounding titles that come along with it). 

While the principles and practices of leadership can be applied to those both commissioned and non-commissioned, there is a specific difference that officers "should" have at the onset - a conscious desire to lead.  Not all do, I've known far too many who didn't; they were really just highly credentialed technician-managers (and sometimes not very competent managers).  Of course, these (IMHO) often based their worth on their "superior" knowledge and credentials and expected others to accept their authority on the same basis.

While NCOs and WOs are (or should be) skilled leaders, they've come to their positions in a more gradual fashion. Though they may have a "conscious desire to lead", it would not be requirement at the lowest rank levels. Their leadership aptitude and skills would have been evaluated (formally and informally) as their careers progressed - and "no-duff", not just (like potential officers) in the artificial environment of BOTC/BMOQ/RMC/Phase trg (or whatever they're called these days).



« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 02:39:56 by Blackadder1916 »
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Offline Simian Turner

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2009, 08:53:06 »
So, do we learn to accept it? Do we continue to chastise posters in the hope that we can teach them a thing or two about the military before they even apply or is there another answer?

I would suggest that people who change their mind about joining the military based on a poor impression from time spent on this site are either: not that committed in the first place or received the necessary wake up call that the military is inflexible to individual quirks and ignorance toward rules and guidelines.  Therefore as stated in the Guidelines: "First and foremost, we're all representatives of the CF. We may not want to be, but ultimately, we don't have the luxury of choice. The truth is when you post a message even on an unofficial site like this, your comments reflect upon the CF."

The guidelines also state (http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/index.st /topic,24937.0.html): You will not use excessive webspeak, or other shorthand styles of typing. Please use English or French to the best of your ability; this makes it easier for those who are not posting in their native language.

In the same manner, experienced users will minimize the use acronyms and abbreviations without showing them out in full on first use.

Ignorance of the guidelines of the site or in the military is no excuse and you will be judged accordingly.  I see no need for change. As The RCR on this site and in real life kindly remind us of their slogan regularly, "Never pass a fault."


 

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Offline PMedMoe

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2009, 09:04:13 »
I cringe when I think of how many potentially excellent members have been turned off of the military by the attitude they have received here

I have to agree with Frostnipped Elf.  How "excellent" do these people have the potential to be if they get so quickly turned off the military solely from a response on this website?
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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2009, 09:25:37 »
While there's merit in the aim of "what should a leader be able to do?" thrust of the thread....
Likewise without a leadership role you can provide support to your team/sub-unt/unit through:
- enthusiasm
- commitment
- honesty and
- the calm ability to say I don't understand at the appropriate time, rather than asking why continually?
.... thanks also for this mention of the other side of the coin - not everybody necessarily wants to be (or needs to be) the boss.
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Offline Greymatters

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2009, 09:28:51 »
To be fair...this isn't your average site and these aren't your average forums. Sure, people are supposed to read the rules before they post their first response but I dare say that that doesn't always happen. Today's tech savy kids (35 and under....myself included) have clicked "I Agree" to so many online legal documents that internet rules don't mean much if anything except being one step closer to where you wanted to be 10 clicks ago. They (we) have been to numerous different sites and forums, have sought advice on everything from acne to changing a tie rod end to how to hack a cell phone.
This site...where they (we) are chastised for repeating an already answered question is an anomaly, a total black sheep. Most forums don't instruct users to search first and certainly don't include hostile "get it together...you want a job...learn to search" responses.

This site should act a key source of information for visitors in two ways:

1) What you read and how content is controlled tells any visitor a lot about past and current CF members and how they think.  if you want to join the CF, regardless of trade or desired rank, get used to the idea of dealing with this mindset on a daily basis.

2) This site is highly critical of visitors (or anyone really) who cant obey rules, cant abide by a moral code, act wishy-washy, or think they can use excuses to get out of trouble.  If they cant handle it here without getting offended, how will they be able to do it for real once they join?   

And for a 'PS' kinda third: "this isn't your average site and these aren't your average forums"; this should be a clue that the CF isnt an average job!

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2009, 12:53:53 »
This site should act a key source of information for visitors in two ways:

1) What you read and how content is controlled tells any visitor a lot about past and current CF members and how they think.  if you want to join the CF, regardless of trade or desired rank, get used to the idea of dealing with this mindset on a daily basis.

2) This site is highly critical of visitors (or anyone really) who cant obey rules, cant abide by a moral code, act wishy-washy, or think they can use excuses to get out of trouble.  If they cant handle it here without getting offended, how will they be able to do it for real once they join?   

And for a 'PS' kinda third: "this isn't your average site and these aren't your average forums"; this should be a clue that the CF isnt an average job!

And how long and how much guidance should be allow before we condemn someone to abuse and say "good riddance" when they leave?  If we want to compare this to a CF environment, when was the last time someone was ridiculed and driven out of the CF on their first day because they asked a "dumb question"? 


Offline Target Up

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2009, 13:00:22 »
Not driven out, but ridden like a rented mule for a few hours.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

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Offline Greymatters

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2009, 13:16:46 »
And how long and how much guidance should be allow before we condemn someone to abuse and say "good riddance" when they leave?  If we want to compare this to a CF environment, when was the last time someone was ridiculed and driven out of the CF on their first day because they asked a "dumb question"?

Hmmm... perhaps not a such a good example when put that way...


Offline mariomike

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2009, 13:26:30 »
Not driven out, but ridden like a rented mule for a few hours.

That's a good way of putting it. With "Progressive Discipline":
http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/labour/publications/employment_standards/discipline.shtml

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2009, 14:04:27 »
Hmmm... perhaps not a such a good example when put that way...

Or would any of them be dogpiled and chased out of the Recruiting Centre because they didn't come from a military family and no-one told them they shouldn't ask about sniper training, pay or when they will get promoted next before establishing their reasons for joining as pure enough for a Templar knighthood?

If any new member's knowledge of the CF, the infantry or any other trade has come from the History and Discovery channels - because where else is there mainstream info on the military - who are we to fault them for misunderstanding something that has been virtually invisible to them in Canadian society?

Leadership also implies offering understanding, guidance and teaching, just like the CF does in the CF in individual training.  If we don't offer that here to every new member, we are not offering an introduction to life in the CF, no matter what any of us want to think we are achieving.

Offline Simian Turner

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2009, 14:15:22 »
And how long and how much guidance should be allow before we condemn someone to abuse and say "good riddance" when they leave?  If we want to compare this to a CF environment, when was the last time someone was ridiculed and driven out of the CF on their first day because they asked a "dumb question"?

In my case the first time would be early July 1983 in a CFB Cornwallis parking lot just before sunrise.  We all know there are no dumb questions, but only a fool logs on to an unofficial army/military web site with thousands of members who have made hundreds of thousands of posts and immediately thinks they have a new, important, unique question that will be best asked using all small letters, a little profanity and a wise-cracking tone.  Try that approach at the local Legion/ANAF/Kinsmen/Rotary/YMCA/Civitan/Lion's/Elk's/Shriner's/your choice club and see what kind of response you get.  It would probably result in the outside door handle hitting you in the behind before you knew what happened.

As for the last time a new arrival was ridiculed for an important, unique, untimely question...since it is Friday afternoon, I would have to say last Monday in a Saint Jean sur Richelieu parking lot just before sunrise.
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2009, 14:24:55 »
In my case the first time would be early July 1983 in a CFB Cornwallis parking lot just before sunrise.  We all know there are no dumb questions, but only a fool logs on to an unofficial army/military web site with thousands of members who have made hundreds of thousands of posts and immediately thinks they have a new, important, unique question that will be best asked using all small letters, a little profanity and a wise-cracking tone.  Try that approach at the local Legion/ANAF/Kinsmen/Rotary/YMCA/Civitan/Lion's/Elk's/Shriner's/your choice club and see what kind of response you get.  It would probably result in the outside door handle hitting you in the behind before you knew what happened.

As for the last time a new arrival was ridiculed for an important, unique, untimely question...since it is Friday afternoon, I would have to say last Monday in a Saint Jean sur Richelieu parking lot just before sunrise.

How easily we forget that adage that "there are no dumb questions".

New members of the CF or any forum don't necessarily have the context to know when something, once asked, will invite ridicule.  What test do you propose to make sure people have searched before asking?  What method will you use to ensure they understand the right vocabulary so they know what to search for?  How will you coach them in using the search page so that they can realistically narrow the responses to an answer, and not just the last 50 times the question was asked and slammed without proving any useful information?

The bottom line is that the forum has developed a nasty edge that doesn't want to give some new posters even a first chance, let a lone a second.

And can I take it from your response that those members were both "ridiculed and driven out of the CF on their first day", because that was the point being made.

Offline Simian Turner

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2009, 14:42:16 »
I read what was written and stand by my statements -  in some cases recruits including officer cadets were/are ridiculed on the first day and not long after some will leave or have left because, of among other things, their hurt feelings.  I did not forget the adage in fact I included it in second sentence of my post.

I do agree that the nasty edge is spreading and perhaps more of the rebukes could be done by PM.  I think it might be appropriate to create a "newbie wading pool without sharks" with perhaps a thread topic title - Please post your first posts/questions here.  The first post in the thread could state -  Be forewarned there are grouchy, sharks in all other regions of the park - swim beyond the ropes with caution.
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Offline Engineer79

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2009, 15:01:42 »
Michael O'Leary, you have officially become my idol on these forums. Always a voice of reason and justice! :salute:

Offline Engineer79

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2009, 16:00:32 »
One thing I've noticed on this forum is how much pride CF members have (which is usually a good thing). Once you offend anyone (knowingly or unknowing) on this forum, you will never earn back their respect back (clearly noticeable through my negative MP points), even after your apologize through a PM.

As for new members coming here and asking question, I agree that there are a few posts that are very redundant. However, there are a few posts that can be contradicting – which leads to more searching and possibly more contradictions. It is essentially a good thing that once in a while there are redundant question to clear up any such confusion and to get an updated answer.

As for this thread, Wallace did many people a great favor by bringing out the question MANY of the experienced CF members on here would like to ask every new member that comes on here and asks “I want to be an officer…blah blah…”. Are you fit to lead? This thread will help new members (myself included) understand the meaning of being an officer (or anyone in a leadership position).

My grandpa always used to say “Education makes the wise wiser and the fool more foolish.” – was a quote by someone who I can’t recall.

I don’t believe there are any “Easy” routes through life, there are always consequences and challenges that will result because of your choices. If a member wishes to lead and made a choice to go through DEO/ROTP, I wouldn’t necessarily call that the “easy way” out.

Offline mariomike

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2009, 16:29:30 »
My grandpa always used to say “Education makes the wise wiser and the fool more foolish.” – was a quote by someone who I can’t recall.

Your grandfather sounds like a wise man. That comes with experience. Unfortunately, so does age.  :)


Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2009, 16:46:45 »
As for this thread, Wallace did many people a great favor by bringing out the question MANY of the experienced CF members on here would like to ask every new member that comes on here and asks “I want to be an officer…blah blah…”. Are you fit to lead? This thread will help new members (myself included) understand the meaning of being an officer (or anyone in a leadership position).

The problem is that most have neither the knowledge or context, at that point, to properly understand the question.  No more than the prospective infantry soldier asking about joining to be a sniper understands how out of place his question is.  And yet, they get damned for not understanding what they don't know, and what most of us did not know at that point in our initial inquiries either. 

Very few can say that the basic attraction of joining the CF that first brought them in the door of the Recruiting Centre is the same as their motivation for serving 10 or 20 or 25 years later.  Most who found that their initial desires weren't met, and who who couldn't evolve with changing career expectations slowly disappeared - but too many who remain forget about them and form their expectations on who they want around them (i.e., from new members) based on those around them now (i.e., those with that similar experience).

No-one is born an officer or NCO, we all grow and learn and develop to become what we are.  And we all started out as that recruit who had to be shown how to lace our boots to meet the CF requirement, iron our shirts and got told to get a haircut every once in a while.  If we aren't ready to accept that everyone else needs guidance to find and get on that learning curve too, we are doing a disservice to those who brought us up through the system.


Offline cheeky_monkey

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2009, 16:56:22 »
However, after you have been to RMC, for the full term, I want you to come here and validate this post.

I am not busting your balls, but I will say this.  You will not be taught that in RMC, trust me.

And if you go against the grain, you will be a pariah...

Well, I'll start now by saying that while I've only been at the Charm School College for a year, I joined the CF with the mindset that Sr NCOs and WOs are just as important as officers in that jigsaw puzzle we call leadership.

And I can only hope that when I graduate, that concept is still fresh in my mind.

I think one of the reasons I see leadership slightly differently from other people at RMC is that I had years of abbreviated leadership formation before joining the CF. Through years in the scouting and cadet communities, along with having a part time job with a defined CoC that almost paralleled the military, I like to believe I developed a decent notion of what leadership is. This experience of mine is in contrast with my classmates who joined straight off of Civvie street, who had never heard of the "Principles of Leadership" before.

One person in particular had a significant impact on my view of "leadership." I met him long before I knew I would be in the Navy, and before I knew of his career in the military. He was a former Cdr, and NAVRES CO. One thing he ALWAYS impressed upon me was the importance of the guys under one's command, especially the Sr NCM - Jr Officer (Div PO - Div O) relationship.

For the Navy MOC/MOSID weekend, RMC had several Sr Officers and CPOs come up from Ottawa and Halifax. I had the chance to speak to, IIRC, the CMS Command Chief. His take on the Sr NCM - Jr Officer relationship mirrored what my mentor, the NAVRES CO, had said to me. That is to say, they were reading from the same playbook.

It's all in the attitude of the OCdts at RMC to DESIRE and STRIVE to be better officers, to learn as much as they can about leading, while they can. If you go to the College with your nose held high, chances are your troops, once\if you get any, won't be too receptive to you.

Your mileage may vary.

Edit for clarity.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 17:31:46 by cheeky_monkey »
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Offline X-mo-1979

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2009, 17:14:01 »
I keep seeing the same thing around here.A 17-19 year old who have probably never seen a Canadian soldier asking the same questions about recruiting etc.

I have ZERO background in computer related things but here is a solution (maybe) to try and curb the same questions asked by members joining.

Upon signing up a part of the joining is filling out a brief survey on what the are interested in knowing.I.E Joining as officer and NCM, how long will it take before basic etc.

Put new members on a 2 week no post probation period,as well if it can be set up automatically have the questions in the survey send all the links pertaining to related questions they want to know.2 weeks without posting would allow the member time to take a good look at all the related info,then after 2 weeks of reading they have a better understanding how the board works.As well have a better idea on their main questions.

Let's face it most 18 year olds are not going to look through FAQ's.Before someone dogpiles me and says that doesnt make a good officer etc...look around...it isnt happening.They are going to try and ask real people,as it is dealing with their careers.Maybe it will also direct people more towards their recruiters if they are armed with basic information that they can find here during their read only period...if there is anything left to be answered.

I dunno if it will work,just a suggestion.

Offline DustintheWind

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2009, 09:14:26 »
Nice post George :) Too bad it was not around last year.

I'm going to try and make myself in the first column of Officers if I make it through :)

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2009, 10:05:58 »
I think everyone just needs to respect each other more, For example the 2Lt fresh out of the RMC, though higher in rank then the sgt should still show a great amount of respect. sr nco's have years up on a lot of jr officer's and have alot they can teach though technically a lower rank, however it is how you said it works both ways, just because someone is a new officer doesn't mean they should be respected less.
I'm of to the RMC in two days and if it's one thing that I've learned for talking with many people in the forces, it's that even thou when you graduate and receive commission you should still respect and listen to your senior NCO's for they have years of experience that you can use and learn from, not only that but with the amount of time some have being serving they deserve and have earned the respect.
As to George's post about people trying to take the easy way. Thinking it was directed to me, It's not that I'm wanting to take the easy way out nor am i going too, I'm just someone new to the military world asking a question. I don't feel it was necessary to criticize someone who just wanted to know how something worked.

I know when you say Snr NCOs  you also mean mbrs of the Warrant Officer\Petty Officer ranks (WO, MWO, CWO Army/Air Force and PO1, CP02 and CP01 for Navy) but technically, WO/POs are not Snr NCOs.  Only Sgts and Petty Officer 2nd Class are Snr NCOs. 

The Officer/NCO relationship is an important one.  Huge.  Personally, when I was army, I always liked new Jr Officer who said things like "ok here is what we are going to do" vice "what you guys are going to do is...".  Big difference to me.  If you are the type of leader that people follow only because of the rank structure, you aren't a true leader IMO.  We've all seen an examples of those.  True leaders are followed because of the respect they earn as a leader, whatever the rank they may be.  Up, down and across their CoC.  As a Jnr NCO years ago, I was taught "the 3 M's" by a former RSM of mine.  The MISSION, the MEN, then MYSELF.  I've served under people who had that concept all messed up and backasswards.

If you notice, all the way thru our Command structure, there is always a NCO/WO paired off with Officer.  CDS/CF CWO.  CO/RSM.  Tp Leader/Tp WO.  I suspect, and hope, that will never change.

Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2009, 12:00:56 »
If you notice, all the way thru our Command structure, there is always a NCO/WO paired off with Officer.  CDS/CF CWO.  CO/RSM.  Tp Leader/Tp WO.  I suspect, and hope, that will never change.

The "good idea people" are dangerous if they're not moderated by the "common sense people".


And, in this day and age, you believe there is room for a separation of leadership, within the Canadian public, based on not scholastic acceptance but how they apply for the military?

Is that not an insult to our military, on how we train our leaders?

A kid, at 17, can apply to be a leader, go to school and be "respected" with an archaic method of recognition, however a cpl. who took the same course has to bow down to him?

Is this modern Canada?

And, if anyone makes a critical remark about this, a reverse discrimination Psychology is applied......pffft.


dileas


tess

Maybe I'm a little slow - I'm not sure exactly what you're taking issue with: the officer corps in general, how officers are selected, the educational requirement, or all three.

As for the latter 2 issues, I'm not sure who said it first, but my OC explained to me once that the only reason we have young junior officers (particularly in command roles such as pl comding) is so that we can have generals later (or Cols/LCols, what have you).  It's only a grooming stage to provide a basic level of experience and establish if you're a complete *** when it comes to commanding. Snr NCOs are more than capable, and usually better-equipped, to lead a sub-sub-unit at the tactical level (witness: the Austrian military, where infantry platoons are led by NCOs [I'm sure there are other militaries, but that's the only one I'm sure of]). If you made everyone go from Pte - Gen, your senior officers would be broken, bitter geezers (an inaccurate description of many senior officers, but not most).  It's just not practical to make everyone go through the ranks to become an officer.

That being said, I think the education component is necessary to be an officer due to their role as administrators/analysts/strategists /quasi-politicians/theorists etc.  It doesn't make them any "better" - consider university to be an officer's equivalent of an NCO's SA course.  Well... it's probably not quite as useful as that but... meh.  Making officers (most anyway) have degrees just ensures that your officer corps is capable of a certain basic standard of administrative/academic/linguistic ability.  I don't see an issue with that.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 12:07:04 by Pointer »

Offline ajp

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2009, 12:16:21 »
The example I saw in my past was while teaching on a course for Officers and Sgts.  The Lts had to show the POTENTIAL to Lead and the Sgt's had to show the skills.  It truly is a grooming for young officers to develop when they are placed in positions where there are WO's in place to ensure they see what is there. I know I learned a lot of interesting lessons from Sgts and WOs along the way.

Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2009, 12:24:57 »
The "good idea people" are dangerous if they're not moderated by the "common sense people".

Maybe I'm a little slow - I'm not sure exactly what you're taking issue with: the officer corps in general, how officers are selected, the educational requirement, or all three.

As for the latter 2 issues, I'm not sure who said it first, but my OC explained to me once that the only reason we have young junior officers (particularly in command roles such as pl comding) is so that we can have generals later (or Cols/LCols, what have you).  It's only a grooming stage to provide a basic level of experience and establish if you're a complete *** when it comes to commanding. Snr NCOs are more than capable, and usually better-equipped, to lead a sub-sub-unit at the tactical level (witness: the Austrian military, where infantry platoons are led by NCOs [I'm sure there are other militaries, but that's the only one I'm sure of]). If you made everyone go from Pte - Gen, your senior officers would be broken, bitter geezers (an inaccurate description of many senior officers, but not most).  It's just not practical to make everyone go through the ranks to become an officer.

That being said, I think the education component is necessary to be an officer due to their role as administrators/analysts/strategists /quasi-politicians/theorists etc.  It doesn't make them any "better" - consider university to be an officer's equivalent of an NCO's SA course.  Well... it's probably not quite as useful as that but... meh.  Making officers (most anyway) have degrees just ensures that your officer corps is capable of a certain basic standard of administrative/academic/linguistic ability.  I don't see an issue with that.


Is it fair to say, you glossed over my post, and did not understand what I said?

How does your post answer my question, with the comparison of the Young officer and Cpl.

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Re: So You Want to be an officer, eh!
« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2009, 14:05:07 »
To the original post.  I can't say I totally fit paragraph 1, I would like to think I have some of those qualities, and that I aspire to the rest.  I can honestly say paragraph b doesn't apply to me: My choice to enter via the DEO stream was part my local CFRC advice in conjunction with my own personal goals. 

On the comment on young tech-savvy kids who click their way through agreements and such, I can as one of those "kids" empathize.  I would say after a couple stern warnings, someone not adhering to the rules should not be spared community reproach.  Different playground, different rules, eh?

48th: Even though I am applying as an officer, I can see your consternation. A degree is one of a few filtering criteria for choosing a job, just like in the corporate world.  Just like in the corporate world you can start at the bottom and work your way up the ranks, or get a degree (not
even necessarily related to the job) and fast-track to an extent.

It's part of a well-meaning, but inherently flawed system that rewards academic achievement, while discounting those with a wealth of experience but no formal education.  So, under that system, in 3 to 4 years the 17 year old will probably have a head-up on the Cpl in becoming an Officer (I assume that 17yr old would still need to exhibit qualities required in an Officer). 

I personally don't think that is totally fair either, but it is the system our society largely works with, not just the CF. Besides, Officer duty is, what?, 65% garrison, 35% field? Perhaps the degree is also sought due the the extra amount of administrative tasks given to officers.  Officers need to be skilled paper-pushers too :)

Which leaves me with a couple questions for you 48th.  This is NOT a rhetorical question, but how many NCMs join with the primary goal of becoming an Officer one day?  and if Pointer glossed over your issue, what exactly was your issue? To me it seems centered around something like credentials vs. experience, the definition of meritocracy, our overdependence on traditional forms of education....but i'm not entirely sure.
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