Author Topic: Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle - RG-31, LAV Coyote, and (partial) G-Wagon Replacement  (Read 458076 times)

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Offline reveng

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Good post EITS.

Between modern airborne ISR, SIGINT/EW, and overhead capabilities I'm not super convinced that "sneak and peek" would work out so well against a peer or near peer OPFOR.

Sure these assets can be knocked out (not by us, mind you) but friendly forces face the same reality.

In the end what does that leave us with? A TAPV or LAV vs something like a T-14 or T-80? No thanks...

Offline Underway

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Good post EITS.

Between modern airborne ISR, SIGINT/EW, and overhead capabilities I'm not super convinced that "sneak and peek" would work out so well against a peer or near peer OPFOR.

Sure these assets can be knocked out (not by us, mind you) but friendly forces face the same reality.

In the end what does that leave us with? A TAPV or LAV vs something like a T-14 or T-80? No thanks...

Lower risk COA might be to hit those assets with indirect fire.  See Ukraine...  LAV's might do OK depending on the type of indirect fire as they are designed to withstand 155 shell fragments but a TAPV is done.  But that's the chess match I would guess.  It explains why the UK and AUS are going with heavier Recce elements. But TAPV isn't really a near peer vehicle design is it.  It's looks good for convoy escort, counter insurgency and peace support operations.

Offline Chris Pook

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Bump

There is a Facebook rumour that the TAPV is having its operational scope, its uses expanded.  It is a curious expansion apparently.  It seems that it is being expanded into every other role than its intended roles at time of procurement.

Recce is right off the board.  Recce will get LAV 6.0  and LAV 6.0  LRSS.
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Offline MCG

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Bump

There is a Facebook rumour that the TAPV is having its operational scope, its uses expanded.  It is a curious expansion apparently.  It seems that it is being expanded into every other role than its intended roles at time of procurement.

Recce is right off the board.  Recce will get LAV 6.0  and LAV 6.0  LRSS.
I thought this news had been on the street for a few years?  The majority of TAPV were bought to institutionalize the role of RG31 in converting light infantry into pseudo mechanized infantry, but the infantry corps recognized this was a bad idea that would lead to something that was neither light infantry nor mech infantry (with none of the strengths but all the weaknesses of each).  That is why divisions were invited to concoct distribution plans that included the PRes (the Army Commander who initiated the project was adamant that he would never waste money buying an AFV for the PRes).

The plan to replace some Coyote with LAV 6 LRSS is also a few years along development, but Recce will continue to use TAPV because the Armd are not getting enough LRSS variants to fill-out all the squadrons they have.  So it will be mixed fleet recce.

Offline daftandbarmy

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The plan to replace some Coyote with LAV 6 LRSS is also a few years along development, but Recce will continue to use TAPV because the Armd are not getting enough LRSS variants to fill-out all the squadrons they have.  So it will be mixed fleet recce.

... which is awesome because it diversifies our risk.... right? :)
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Offline Chris Pook

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I thought this news had been on the street for a few years?  The majority of TAPV were bought to institutionalize the role of RG31 in converting light infantry into pseudo mechanized infantry, but the infantry corps recognized this was a bad idea that would lead to something that was neither light infantry nor mech infantry (with none of the strengths but all the weaknesses of each).  That is why divisions were invited to concoct distribution plans that included the PRes (the Army Commander who initiated the project was adamant that he would never waste money buying an AFV for the PRes).

The plan to replace some Coyote with LAV 6 LRSS is also a few years along development, but Recce will continue to use TAPV because the Armd are not getting enough LRSS variants to fill-out all the squadrons they have.  So it will be mixed fleet recce.

Perhaps it is just now percolating out to the civvy world?  You have jogged my memory on previous discussions on this site but the "rumour" to which I referred seemed to indicate that the infantry employment was off the table as well.   The TAPV seems now likely to be a Liaison & Utility Vehicle and Rover across all arms.
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

"If change isn’t allowed to be a process, it becomes an event." - Penny Mordaunt 10/10/2019

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ignoramus et ignorabimus

Offline Loch Sloy!

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We sure spent a lot of money on a vehicle we don't know what to do with.

At least we could have purchased some of the Infantry Section Carrier versions (give them to reserve armoured so they can taxi reserve infantry around) or better yet some of the mortar variants so we could actually move our 81mm mortars around...

I would have even preferred we replace the milcots rather than buy TAPV.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who kept their swords.
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Offline Chris Pook

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We sure spent a lot of money on a vehicle we don't know what to do with.

At least we could have purchased some of the Infantry Section Carrier versions (give them to reserve armoured so they can taxi reserve infantry around) or better yet some of the mortar variants so we could actually move our 81mm mortars around...

I would have even preferred we replace the milcots rather than buy TAPV.

Personally I would rather the money have been spent on 500 Bisons - Empty LAV IIs.
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

"If change isn’t allowed to be a process, it becomes an event." - Penny Mordaunt 10/10/2019

“Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards” ~ Soren Kierkegaard

ignoramus et ignorabimus

Offline Loch Sloy!

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Quote
Personally I would rather the money have been spent on 500 Bisons - Empty LAV IIs.

100% agree! New pick-up trucks just seemed more likely.  ::)
Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who kept their swords.
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Offline MCG

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Personally I would rather the money have been spent on 500 Bisons - Empty LAV IIs.
At this point, we would be better with LAV 6 in RWS variants ... call it a "Bison 2" if that helps.  End result would be fewer fleets to manage, train, and support.

Offline Chris Pook

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At this point, we would be better with LAV 6 in RWS variants ... call it a "Bison 2" if that helps.  End result would be fewer fleets to manage, train, and support.

Seen.

"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

"If change isn’t allowed to be a process, it becomes an event." - Penny Mordaunt 10/10/2019

“Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards” ~ Soren Kierkegaard

ignoramus et ignorabimus

Offline Chris Pook

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The mini-TAPV - the 7 tonne JLTV

Quote
Blind Spots and Loud Noises: Report Finds Problems With New JLTVs

https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2019/02/25/blind-spots-and-loud-noises-report-finds-problems-new-jltvs.html

Big, noisy, ugly, hard to see out of, hard to get out of and hard to get ahold of your kit. 

And the Army has to leave the armour behind because the Chinook doesn't lift as much as the Stallion.

Aside from that - the answer to a maiden's prayer.
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

"If change isn’t allowed to be a process, it becomes an event." - Penny Mordaunt 10/10/2019

“Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards” ~ Soren Kierkegaard

ignoramus et ignorabimus

Offline AlDazz

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Some very good discussion on the TAPV and it's potential rolls.  Have to say this seems to be vehicle ordered for the last war that is looking for a real job.  I watching some video from 5 Div and noticed that it has jerry can mounts on lower rear of the hull. Don't we still back into hide locations?  What were they thinking?
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Offline Spencer100

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Offline OceanBonfire

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ACSV production has started:

Quote
Production of Armoured Combat Support Vehicles Begins



Production on the first Armoured Combat Support Vehicle (ACSV) has begun in London, Ontario at the General Dynamics Land Systems-Canada manufacturing facilities. These new vehicles will fulfill a variety of combat support roles such as that of Troop/Cargo Vehicle (TCV), ambulance, command post, and mobile repair and recovery.

The contract for this project was awarded last September, and since then, a number of subcontracts have been awarded by General Dynamics to allow work to start. These subcontracts represent over $137 million in investments to more than 30 Canadian businesses from coast to coast to coast, creating and sustaining over 400 jobs across the country.

This is a big step forward as the government continues to deliver on Strong, Secure, Engaged, Canada’s first fully costed and funded defence policy. As per the Industrial and Technological Benefits Policy, General Dynamics will re-invest an amount equal to the value of the contract to create and sustain well-paying jobs across the country.

These vehicles will replace the current fleets of M113 Tracked Light Armoured Vehicle (TLAV) and the LAV II Bison. The first vehicle is expected roll off the production line this December, with deliveries occurring through February 2025. Testing, training, and procurement of spare parts will be required before the initial vehicles are distributed to Canadian Armed Forces bases in 2022.


https://www.facebook.com/CanadianForces/photos/a.1524483394445524/2951245298435986/

https://twitter.com/CanadianForces/status/1290726907307347970

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/news/2020/08/production-of-armoured-combat-support-vehicles-begins.html
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Offline dapaterson

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ACSV is a LAV hull - this probably should be on the LAV 6.0 thread, not the TAPV thread (GDLS vs Textron).
Putting the *** in acerbic.